Jump-on / re-seed during new uploads

amice

@__blackdid__

actually, there is no special explanation for you necessary, as your example was absolutely correct (perhaps if you read my reply with more attention, you could save your fingers - because i completely agree with you). my reaction only precises your previous utterance. in fact, connectibility has no effect on it. now have a closer look at what happens and why the real result is different from this 'scheme'…

there are more forms of 'bad behavior' on this tracker, not only jumping-on. another flaming problem names over-seeding - here's the stumbling-block of this case. two basic forms of overseeding can be recognized: too fast up-streams & over-ratio. both are dangerous and detrimental for new users and for slow-liners. if all users would be gentlemen and set their clients in the spirit of a fair-share policy, no one would have problems here.

what to do? alas, there is very little to help out of this uneasiness. no rules would help resolving this event, we need a firm system solution - site software control against all 3 pet peeves: jumping-on, up-streams, over-ratio. i hope you can imagine how a complicated change this would be

however, a few tools might help with this: uTP protocol in uTorrent (supposed to help with NAT issues), initial-seeding mode (should be morally obligatory for fast-liners), maximal moral per-torrent ratio of 1.1

@__MrMazda__

you wrongly got my objection. i was talking about your opinion that non-connectible users should endure jumping-on, just because of their technical state. i asked why, because as me, Uwe and others already many times explained that connectibility may not be seen as an obstacle in the seeding process (as it isn't either).

typos corrected

blackdid

@amice:

actually, there is no special explanation for you necessary, as your example was absolutely correct.

I like that, i like that :cheers:
Coming from you, it means a lot to me, it shows I understood a bit this connectible thing.
I tried to give a full detailed example, indicating exactly the tracker update times, the upload/download speed of the original uploader and the 2 leechers, the exact time when both leechers entered the swarm, the torrent size and the amount uploaded by the original seeder to each leecher, what a mixture !

@amice:

there are more forms of 'bad behavior' on this tracker, not only jumping-on. another flaming problem names over-seeding

Well, now you teach me something new as I didn't know at all what was "over-seeding" and the bad effects it could have on others.
I found a link that may be interesting, with someone asking : "What is overseeding ?"
And the 1st answer given to him was : "Some who overseed make it hard for others to seed back what they've downloaded"

hxxp://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/915839

MrMazda

@amice: Oops… My bad

@blackdid: You do raise a good point with the example of the difference of speed. In that kind of case, I wouldn't necessarily say that it would warrant punching the jump on seeder in the face because again, nobody likes a slow download. I would say though that it still may not exactly be looked to kindly on by the original uploader. It's kinda hard to draw the line in that kind of situation.

stealfire

Seed bonuses from very generous members have been extremely helpful to me and have allowed me to dig myself out the hole I was in. I would have done so anyway, it just would have taken much longer. However, they are a gift and not a given and so should not be taken into consideration re: this topic.

Reality is that someone with faster access is going to be able to upload and download faster than someone with a slower connection. It makes no sense to upload another copy just because you had intended to do so. Isn't there a rule about uploading duplicates? Everyone deserves their due - the one who uploaded the torrent should receive whatever credit comes from doing so.

(As memory gets cheaper and bandwidths get wider, better quality, larger sized torrents make more sense to me. If given a choice, I prefer to download a high quality version, knowingly spending the space, time and bandwidth resources to do so. I find it ironic that in a time of high definition, we're willing to give up quality for convenience as I do with Netflix streaming.)

mgr

I completely agree with you - especially with your last paragraph which I quote to impress the importance of good quality videos opposed to convenient(?) smaller downloads!

@stealfire:

As memory gets cheaper and bandwidths get wider, better quality, larger sized torrents make more sense to me. If given a choice, I prefer to download a high quality version, knowingly spending the space, time and bandwidth resources to do so. I find it ironic that in a time of high definition, we're willing to give up quality for convenience as I do with Netflix streaming.)

amice

@blackdid:

…
Well, now you teach me something new as I didn't know at all what was "over-seeding" and the bad effects it could have on others.
I found a link that may be interesting, with someone asking : "What is overseeding ?"
And the 1st answer given to him was : "Some who overseed make it hard for others to seed back what they've downloaded"

hxxp://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/915839

there is nothing to "teach", the title of this says for all. over is simply over. or is there anything special to explain for you?

blackdid

@amice:

there is nothing to "teach", the title of this says for all. over is simply over. or is there anything special to explain for you?

Well…I was thinking about the pros and cons of overseeding : if overseeding means you never stop to seed your torrent in the client program even long ago after you snatched it, then download speed will be very fast for all those who start to leech this torrent anytime, because of many seeders and few/no leechers. I feel that some users (who like to download their torrents very fast) will like that.

Especially I read often in GT Forum : seed, seed, seed, to keep the torrents alive and help others in their downloads.
The SBP gift (1 SBP each 2 hours) has nothing to do with that, because you earn it no matter how many torrents you seed (it's same if you seed 1 or 100 torrents)

Now the cons : as the guy answered in the other Forum, if you keep on seeding forever (and you have a fast upload speed), "you make it hard for users with slow upload speed to seed back what they've downloaded", i.e at least one full copy of what you have downloaded, to reach a 1:1 ratio on that torrent.

Maybe there are other pros and cons concerning overseeding ?
That's what I wanted to know

I just found another link where they discuss a lot about it and they have very strict rules in that Forum.
Just maximize "Pedro's warning pic" in the middle of the web page and read their detailed overseeding rules :

hXXp://www.torrent-invites.com/bittorrent-discussion/34671-overseeding-rules.html

Their Pedro's pic is really interesting (I wonder if I should attach it here but I prefer not as it's not GT rules) : please note how they refuse overseeding during 48 hours only (i.e. no ratio > 3 for that fresh torrent, except from the original uploader) then they encourage everybody to start seeding the torrent again...after 48 hours, now I've got it

And on their page 2, they give examples the way we do, starting with : "Let's say A has 100mbit UL line, B has 10mbit UL and both have 100mbit DL line..."
I like that !

Gee...7 pages of full comments, a user writing this :
"I think the best way to restrict overseeding is be simply not giving upload credit for overseeding. That way the true devoted people can still contribute for free and there would be no problems on the tracker..."

And this : "Of course seeding is a good thing, but what I meant to say is that I believe it's fair to give chance to people with slower upload speeds to return as close to 1.0 as they can as fast as they can. While there is no doubt that better speeds are always welcome, I for one would be prepared to wait a little bit more to get content I want if that can help people without great speeds to maintain good ratio."

amice

because this tracker has strict and hard ratio demands, we need a system for all users, not only for uploaders. while fast uplinks are still rare (compared to growing fast downloads), it's not that easy to make a system which would suit all users we had many internal (staff) discussions about this topic, and still are not able to come to a concrete solution.

previously i had an idea about making some filters which would prevent new and low-ratio users from leeching torrents with a bad "health" (per-torrent up/down ratio), based on their account ratio. this way would be the easiest one of other possible, as other ways require too many combinations for calculation, and coding work (not talking about hunting and squashing bugs). i also had some ideas about lowering the current obligatory ratio levels, but admins say that users abused it in the past, so i'm lost here.

i too, would like to have an option to reset seeding levels in uTorrent, we (users) are still wanting and waiting for this longtime asked feature …and also for a better sharing scheduler (there is none so far doing what we need)

contra966

Hi All,

Thanks blackdid for posting your unaltered reply. I didn't think it rude, not one profanity at all.

But I was actually asking about the points I'd made. Perhaps they had been missed.

You say:

@blackdid:

They gave him Seedbonus Gift because they saw his download rights were disabled and he is a good uploader, as it can be seen in his profile : he uploaded dozens of torrents these last months. Actually he needs to upload more than 22GB to be able to download anything (as shown in his profile)

Now if his upload speed is slow, as you showed it (6.13 KB/s) , that's the reason why he needs all the credit of his upload. We see in the 2 attached pics that he keeps uploading…at his speed, the point is that he won't be able to upload a full copy of his movie (1.37GB) now that he's not alone anymore as a seeder [updated on january 17 : more than 24 hours after I wrote this post, he uploaded only 1.27Gb of his own movie !] . So I'm glad for him that users gifted him with SBP so he'll be able to upload new torrents. If noone gifted him with SBP because of his slow upload speed, then he'd better stop his downloads and uploads, especially if anyone jumps on his torrents before he uploaded a full copy of it.

So in this case :

the uploader had a ratio problem (download disabled !)

the uploader had a slow upload speed (6.13Kb/s)

the jump-on seeder had a fast upload speed (90.84Kb/s)
Was the "jump-on" acceptable on his torrent when he has his ownload rights disabled and he tries to fix his ratio ?

I agree with what you first say.
I'm glad too that he was gifted seed points. He is in a hole with his ratio and is using uploads to solve the problem. I applaud that. The site needs good uploaders and seeders to keep it going.

But what you next say seems confused; self-contradictory. "Now if his upload speed is slow, as you showed it (6.13 KB/s) , that's the reason why he needs all the credit of his upload"

No. For him the more files he can upload the better. Then generous and sympathetic members can gift him more points. He has in fact been gifted 3956 points. Points are not guaranteed but they are likely.

But you continue to argue that his seeding is the more important factor. It is not. 24 hours after your post he still had not uploaded all the torrent. But he did gain 420 gift points (that is an equivalent upload volume far greater than he could have managed with his bandwidth) And he went on to upload another torrent and receive more points. That is something he could not have done if he was still slowly seeding that previous torrent. He has since uploaded four more. I’m sure not at 6kb/s.

So by insisting he should upload alone you are making things more difficult for him; doing harm to his attempt to solve his ratio problem.

Take the seed points out of the argument and I agree with you more. But we can't.
Many uploaders do so because they want points, why else do some posts start "SEED POINTS MUCH APPRECIATED"

In a nutshell: for uploaders seeking points to raise their ratio the more torrents they push out the better. If someone helps them push one out they can move onto the next more quickly.

I think I must make my next post a case against some jump-on seeders.
After all, I did enter this discussion to see both sides of the argument.


Thank you Uwe for the clear and simple explanation. I think I understand it now :)

@Uwe:

> Not connectible does **not** mean not seeding (or leeching). If someone is off-line as a seeder or leecher of a torrent, he will simply not appear in the peer list [1].
> 
> Not connectible just means other torrent clients requests for parts (or offers) don't reach that members torrent client programme, which slows down the upload/download, but makes it not impossible.
> 
> The exchange of data happens on private tracker still directly between the members torrent client programmes, not via our site or tracker. Our tracker informs only members about peers and keeps track of the upload/downloads made by the member's torrent client programme reports.
> 
> Private tracker means that no other ways like DHT or peer exchange and so on are allowed to find peers and exchange data on that torrent. So the peers need to use a torrent with our tracker URL and a valid member passkey.
> 
> [1] If the seeding has been stopped properly, else he will show up up-to the end of a second tracker cycle (30 to 60 mins.).

But that goes against what amice has said surely?

@amice:

> @**MrMazda**
> 
> you wrongly got my objection. i was talking about your opinion that _non-connectible_ users should endure jumping-on, just because of their technical state. i asked _why_, because as me, Uwe and others already many times explained that connectibility may not be seen as an obstacle in the seeding process _(as it isn't either)_.

During the time a seeder is not connectible a leecher can not send requests. That must be an obstacle in the seeding process?

Hey ho - back to wrestle with a Windows 7 install.

Best wishes

Popper

No both amice and me are saying that seeding is possible when the seeder is not connectible.

You should be aware that 420 SBP are very exceptional, go through the list and you'll see that usually it is less and sometimes even zero.

If every downloader would just gift a single Seed Bonus Points, at the en it would sum up to important amounts, just a thought …

There is another thing on which I may have got you wrong. The snatched list shows all members who have completed the download (there seems to have been a "cleaning" of history though). Independently if seeding or not.
The green and red dotsin the PM button indicate if the member is logged in, means if a PM is likely to be read immediately or not. It has nothing to do with the leeching / seeding activity.

blackdid

@Uwe:

If every downloader would just gift a single Seed Bonus Points, at the end it would sum up to important amounts, just a thought …

I always liked this idea !

@contra966:

Take the seed points out of the argument and I agree with you more.

As I don't take the gifted seed points in consideration, then we agree more

joeblow123

This is happening to me right now on my upload http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=97877
by user http://tracker.gaytor.rent/userdetails.php?id=72622

:cry2:

blackdid

@joeblow123 : I understand it doesn't make you feel happy (see your crying icon)

Especially you prepared patiently 36 pics in the description page, formatted nicely your detailed description text (also including all technical characteristics of the movie) and added 32 tags ~ to indicate many categories, niches and themes, great job !

Then someone jumps on your torrent (without having prepared anything), takes all the credit of your long preparation and you won't be able to upload to the max, especially your ratio isn't good.

Well, you'll sure find some persons who will tell you that nothing can be done about it, personnally I don't like at all this situation on a based ratio site and I understand your frustration, as you maybe read what I wrote about this subject.

Maybe you should PM the guy (it maybe too late in a few hours) asking him to stop immediately, but perhaps he's sleeping now.
In case anyone from the staff needs a pic of the situation, I just took one, showing 2 seeders (including you of course), when all leechers just reached 50%

If you prefer to take the pic by yourself and PM it to a Mod, you should do it quickly while you're still 2 seeders, using the link that shows the detailed peers names :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=97877&dllist=1#seeders

blackdid

A few hours after : thanks to the unknown Mod who stopped this jump-on seeding (now you appear as the only seeder in your hot Vintage torrent, while most leechers downloaded 75% of it) so the hemorrhage will be less important for you.

As both of you (seeders) haven't been online since your last post (as shown in your Forum profile and his GT profile), it shows that a Mod directly fixed the issue, probably PM him so he won't do it again.

Or maybe your jump-on seeder stopped his client program by himself, without accessing GT web site (that could be the reason why he hasn't been on line for many hours), i.e without reading any PM

Don't know why…but my guess is that a Mod fixed the situation.
So thanks to the unknown Mod (or even Admin), whoever you are.

amice

dears, once for all: we (staff) cannot stop anyone doing this. it's technically impossible because the transfers are P2P based –> you have no transfer interaction with the tracker but with yourselves only (with each other).

i hope that admins will find a technical solution how to stop this pet peeve (and not only this one). so far you are allowed to PM those users to ask them to stop their uploads of your fresh torrents. report them only if you cannot reach them by PM, or if you can but they don't seem to reflect to your request.

blackdid

Hi amice
But, as long as you got his IP (in case it's a static IP), it should be possible to block (momentarily) his access to GT tracker ?
Well, I don't know if Mods can do such a thing or if it requires Admin privileges to do this.

Also what would be the result of this momentarily blocking ?
He won't be seen anymore as a seeder, his ratio won't be credited each 30 min with many MB that belong to the original uploader and he won't connect to all new leechers after this "forced disconnection" from the tracker. So yes, he should be able to keep on uploading to "old" leechers (but not to the new ones) and his upload amount won't be increased as soon as he is disconnected from GT tracker.

But all this would require extra work for all of you…so, as you wrote : "I hope that admins will find a technical solution how to stop those pet peeves"

Recently, Mgr was thinking a lot about this issue, let's wait patiently.

wombat2

This thread is really annoying me now.. Who is he Big Brother?? Who is he??

@blackdid:

a new film appears, for example [Alphamale] Pumped And Fucked (2010) as in my new upload,
Gee…I can't believe it !!!
We are THREE seeders after 5 minutes of upload,

Well actually there was another seeder for 2 seconds.. ME.. I saw your post & was only checking to see if it was the version that I had converted from a 4000kbps wmv [ 6 hours] & uploaded to the .org site [another 6 hours] on 17th Dec.. & it was..

@blackdid:

And they thank me, how great…

You should just be thankfull that they thanked you [ I only got 12 out of 323 downloads] & since you were not one of them I assume you got it from the errio. site [oops.. but I see it was never posted on the errio site ].. So where did it come from??..

@blackdid:

I deleted my torrent after 10 min of upload because i won't let those guys jump on my torrent after 5 min and take all credit for it

I have no sympathy for anyone who deletes a torrent for such a selfish reason.. You want ALL the credit for yourself?? & if you don't get it you will throw a tantrum??

@leatherbear:

I always remember that the members like you are what make this site so wonderful. Always a gentlemen and live by the "Do the next right thing" motto.

A lesson better learned sooner than later in life…..

WHAT??
He is on a witch hunt.. Wanting members banned for trying to increase their ratios, allbeit, in the wrong way..

"LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE"..

@joeblow123:

This is happening to me right now on my upload http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=97877
by user http://tracker.gaytor.rent/userdetails.php?id=72622

:cry2:

Now YOU do have my sympathy.. & have just given you a seed bonus gift.. Though it might be better if you temporarilly change your security settings while you initial seed.. so that members can see you are trying to improve your ratio & are taking part / contributing to this community.. ratio only shows in Forum posts.. NOT torrent posts.. If we can see how many points you need [350points = 5GB] it helps us to judge our gifts..

blackdid

@wombat2:

@blackdid:

I deleted my torrent after 10 min of upload because i won't let those guys jump on my torrent after 5 min and take all credit for it

I have no sympathy for anyone who deletes a torrent for such a selfish reason.. You want ALL the credit for yourself??

Yes I want ALL the credit for myself.
I don't like to spend a long time preparing the description AND the numerous pics, chosen them carefully one by one, uploading the torrent and see anyone jump on my torrent until 3-4 have snatched it, as it's the implied rule here.

I accept the fact that you have no sympathy for anyone who deletes a torrent for "such a selfish reason" (though I was 100% sure the same movie would be uploaded by someone else a few hours after I deleted it, and this is exactly what happened. I don't care if I lost my time preparing it for nothing, but I hope the jump-on seeder will remind this lesson. And if the same situation happens again, I'll do exactly the same)

So yes, I have no sympathy for anyone who jumps on a torrent when he didn't prepared anything, especially on a ratio-based site, where some users have a slow upload speed.

And I'm not, as you say, "on a witch hunt.. wanting members banned for trying to increase their ratios" : I want members to upload their own NEW fresh torrents and get all credits for their preparation, if they want to boost their ratio. I don't want to see joeblow123, who has a ratio problem, have anyone else seeding with him until 3-4 members have snatched his fresh torrent. And if the jump-on guy has a fast upload speed, that's 10 time worse for the original uploader, is it so hard to understand ?

If you want to see the kind of difficult description I'm talking about, have a look here :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=87336&filelist=1#filelist

Gladly noone could jump-on this kind of torrent, because of the 14 self-prepared zip files…
Btw, I'm having a look at your profile : where can I see the torrents you carefully prepared and uploaded in this site ?

@wombat2:

(concerning joeblow123)…Though it might be better if you temporarilly change your security settings while you initial seed.. so that members can see you are trying to improve your ratio & are taking part / contributing to this community.. ratio only shows in Forum posts.. NOT torrent posts.. If we can see how many points you need [350points = 5GB] it helps us to judge our gifts..

Your last comment to joeblow123 : he probably can't change his security settings because he's not a Power User (he didn't upload 40GB and his ratio is far under 1.05) . Due to a bug in the site, he'll have to wait to be a Power User in case he wants to have his Profile visible. It happened same for me (I had to wait until I uploaded 40GB, then only I could change my Profile settings and be visible, because I don't like at all hidden profiles)

wombat2

@blackdid:

Yes I want ALL the credit for myself.

Well now you DO have my sympathy.. In fact I feel very sorry for you.. :cry2:

You don't seem to understand the torrent site ethos of "sharing with friends"..

It's not about my ego or yours.. it's about FRIENDS sharing as best they can.. :hug:
& making allowance for the others failing & mistakes..

blackdid

@wombat2:

Well now you DO have my sympathy..

Thank you :hug: