Jump-on / re-seed during new uploads
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I think it won't exactly be easy to establish a clear cut guideline on the subject. There are many factors to take into account with jump-on torrents. Upload speeds only begins to scratch the surface. File size, the user's ratio, etc. are all contributing factors to whether or not such a practice is acceptable.
While there lies the arguement of it increases the download speed because nobody likes a slow download, this is not the only factor involved. I think taking a look at the ratio of both the uploader and the jump on seeder is an essential key to take into account. For example, if a user is trying to fix their ratio because of a low ratio warning and a jump on seeder with a ratio of like 6.2 for example jumps on to try and cheat the user out of good and fair ratio, personally, I'd want to punch the jump on in the face. No… I don't condone violence, but sometimes it is nescessary to give users a few light slams every now and then :rotfl:
On the other hand, you could argue that this is a file sharing site, and as such, the purpose of this site is to share files. If the purpose of this site is to share files, then in theory a jump on seeder would be a much praised thing. That being said however, as previously mentioned, not all circumstances ar the same. As a filesharing site, I believe it to be in everyone's best interest to establish a more set guideline. Where's the distinguishing point between acceptable use and crossing the line of "No acts of douchebaggery"?
So... All things taken into account, again I go back to the same question. What is the ratio and objective of the uploader in this case, and what is the ratio of the jump on seeder? Is there an act of douchebaggery in this case?
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Some users don't finish seeding their torrents, or don't seed straight on through at least until they've distributed 3-4 copies.
Jumping on such torrents ensures their availability. Just another example of where jumping on a torrent can help.
Of course no one can predict what the uploader will do.I think that the people who jump on torrents mean well in most cases.
I'd like to see evidence that this is some sort of crisis before we work on making more rules. We have plenty enough rules already.
I'm not against forming a guideline or rule for this if there is a true need for it.IMO people who jump on torrents help everyone out way more often than they hurt an uploader, and I have my doubts as to how often uploaders are really hurt by people jumping on their torrent.
Well this is really interesting now, thanks to newcomers in this topic, mrmazda, beercan, stealfire (thanks for your kind PM), trukr (who really should be more present in this forum, see how interesting is his last message and the good questions he asks)
I'd like to have time to be here more, for months I haven't been able to. There were times where I haven't been here in over a month. My BF had some serious health problems (and still has some), it's busy season on my real job, and I had some nasty problems at work too. I hope to be here regularly again soon. Things seem to be settling down, which is good because I don't think I could have taken much more stress.
Trukr asks : "What if someone is uploading at turtle speed, crippled handicapped turtle speed even? No one likes slow downloads"
( I laughed so much, reading "crippled handicapped turtle speed even" :rotfl: )
Well it's sure that having an avg upload speed of 214Kb/s (as shown under your avatar in the left column, also it's probably a bit greater while you upload a fresh torrent) can't compare to my 28Kb/s maximum (same for MrMazda I guess, and many others)So "turtle speed" is sure very relative, depending on each user's avg ul/dl speeds.
That's why each user should know what is the maximum size of any fresh torrent he should be allowed to upload, so other users won't have to wait indefinitely. I remember having asked this to a Mod who told me 1Gb should be my max (i.e 28Kb/s => 100Mb/h => 1Gb/10h)And in fact I stick to this rule : if you search for "blackdid" (unquoted) in the torrent search window, sorted by torrent size descending, I never uploaded anything bigger than 600Mb in my 31 uploads…because I don't want downloaders to wait too long before they got a full copy of the torrent.
I remember too that a new discussion in another topic showed that Uwe, Mgr etc... hadn't a problem while waiting many hours / days during a single download, in case they wanted the torrent really bad ("torrent = patience" they said lol)
So it's a real difficult question , but if guys who have a "slow" upload connection (like mine, constant 28Kb/s) know that they shouldn't upload BIG torrents of 2 or 3GB (not talking about full DVD's) then there's no reason for us to accept that a "jump on" seeder appears too early (i.e. until 3-4 leechers snatched my fresh torrent) , not talking about all the torrent preparation done by the original uploader.
Your upload speed isn't as slow as what I had in mind for a turtle…or crippled turtle. I was thinking about people who upload at -2kB to 5kB max.
In that situation I think leechers would love people jumping on the torrent to help them out (file sharing isn't ALL about the uploader ;)).I don't agree with you having any upload restrictions being placed on you concerning the file size. It would be OK if you uploaded much larger files such as full DVD for example, or even a site rip of several GB. Getting stuff slowly, eventually, one day, is better than never at all.
Ignore the mod who has enslaved you!! :nutki::P I have set you free!
I have blessed you with my divine permission to do so. Carry on. 
Seriously tho, I don't agree with that, and there is no rule or guideline even. Most of all, it doesn't make sense. Anyone can upload what they want size-wise (as long as no rules are broken such as the collection rules), and leechers can be patient and hope other seeders join in if it's slow going.I agree with most of the rest of your post regarding a guideline.
IMO the programming part wouldn't be beneficial overall for the reasons I've already given throughout my posts. It would hurt the community while maybe helping only a few. -
I was about to add a comment but it was so sooooooo long that I just saved it as draft, waiting to be re-worked lol
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I even don't see why you shouldn't upload DVD (including double layer). In 2 to 4 days it is all done and the 'slow' download speed concerns only the initial upload period.
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I would tend to agree with Uwe on that one. As far as the download goes, once one or two users have snagged it, there are more available people with the whole file to download from
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Trukr, Uwe, MrMazda : thanks for your input
…I'm not sure but i suspect this might work to prevent "jump-in".
making minor alterations to the file you have should cause the file to acquire a different characteristic and whoever trying to perform the jump may find that their existing file lost.
theoretical and might generate some bad blood. I'd prefer if there's no need for such a measure but ... personal preference prevails.eg.
-editing the file to change the size. (adding/cutting a 5 second intro or credit)
-change the encoding.
-[contributor input]Beercan, this is exactly what I was experimenting !
1) 1st try : alter the last byte of an .avi file (with an hexadecimal editor able to re-write part of files…or even sectors on your hard drive, that's a dangerous program !)
This 1st try didn't give good results, why you ask ?
Because the altered avi file kept its original size and only 1 byte is altered in it, so the "jump-on" guy (who has a copy of the non altered movie) will have his torrent client program download...only the last block of the file (which contains the altered byte) then immediately seed the whole altered movie : he'll jump on your torrent after 1 second, instead of jumping on it after 0 seconds, so you won't get rid of him with this 1st try.Also, some movies (like mp4 files) need important informations found at the very end of the file, so it maybe dangerous to alter the last byte if you're not sure of its "importance", depending on the file extension.
2) 2nd try : alter the whole .avi file by cutting 1/10th of seconds at the end of the file.
This can be done with good multimedia programs who extract parts of the movie without any recompression (though I guess all key frames are rewritten, but the movie itself stays unchanged) . It takes a bunch of seconds to extract 1GB, depending on your hard drive speed.You can verify the extraction went fine by playing the altered movie in Vlc (for example), dragging the cursor to fastforward to any part of the movie : the new scene should appear immediately, as when you did it with the original movie.
Now the "jump-on" guy won't be able to be added as "seeder" until he downloads a complete copy of the altered file.
3) I didn't try the merge of 2 files (i.e the original movie + the last duplicated second of the movie that you extracted in a separated short movie file)
It should work too, but why complicate things and add a phase (i.e extract 1 second at the end of the movie with a multimedia splitter program, THEN combine the original movie + the duplicated last second with a multimedia joiner program that doesn't recompress the movie)
If test #2 worked, I won't try test #3…even if I'm very curious
Because it's not only theorical tests, I took the place of a "jump-on" member, re-downloading from GT a couple of my own torrents (the ones I uploaded) to analyze what will happen when the client program (utorrent) finds an altered copy of the movie (like in tests #1 and #2)PS: I don't see any interest in changing the encoding : if I have to wait many minutes (or hours) to transform an avi to a wmv (for example) WITH image quality degradation, it's not worth any more : you're not sure a "jump-on" guy will jump on your torrent, so why losing a long time to prevent this. I accept to lose 1-2 min before a new upload, by cutting the last 1/10th of second in the movie, but I won't accept to lose 1 hour (and degrade the image quality) for this...
...though I'm not sure this isn't been done on purpose by some guys : when your ratio is going bad and you don't have anything to upload, it looks tempting to re-encode any movie you got into another extension : that's why I don't really agree with one of GT rule that allows to "upload already existing content when the file is a different size or version (i.e, avi instead of wmv)"
But that's another question
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I have no problems with others jumping on my torrents. It simply means that others can download faster. Unless it is a very low demand torrent, I can continue to seed for the x number of hours I had planed in the first place and upload the same amount as if no one had jumped on. So I really do not lose anything. After all it is the amount uploaded that counts and not whether it was initial seeding or a very old torrent.
I have not been a member for long, but in my experience the seed bonus given to me as the torrent uploader has probably been more useful then the actual amount I have uploaded.
Consider the new user who has submitted a torrent and after waiting 10, 12 hours or more sees you come along with auto-approval and upload the exact same torrent he has waiting. He put just as much time and effort into getting the torrent ready as you did. Don't you think it is fair that he should be able to upload as well?
As there is no easy technical solution to control the jump-on, why not just embrace it.
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@arthurdent<–----> Interesting thoughts and now I am rethinking my position on this topic.
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I have no problems with others jumping on my torrents. It simply means that others can download faster.
That again depends on a lot of factors. If the "jumping on" one has a good upload speed (like a server based seedbox) that might become disastrous for your upload traffic and thus to your ratio. (unless you decide to seed for a very long time - and that means in the range of several months - not hours
).…
I have not been a member for long, but in my experience the seed bonus given to me as the torrent uploader has probably been more useful then the actual amount I have uploaded.
...an often neglected bonus for uploaders!
Consider the new user who has submitted a torrent and after waiting 10, 12 hours or more sees you come along with auto-approval and upload the exact same torrent he has waiting. He put just as much time and effort into getting the torrent ready as you did. Don't you think it is fair that he should be able to upload as well?
That is a topic which is already handled by our approving moderators. If there is such a "duplicate" upload coincidence (and they happen quite often
) the original upload time is taken into account: even if it took two days (holidays f.x.) to approve a torrent we still know which torrent was uploaded first and that one counts as the original.As there is no easy technical solution to control the jump-on, why not just embrace it.
That is the reason we don't have written rules about that topic yet. We can just ask our members to not "jump on" a torrent until it is snatched some times (at least 3 other seeders). That time span gives the original uploader some time to reach at least traffic for one complete copy of the uploaded video. Later on "jumping on" is something else. But there is no technical possibility to enforce such a rule - the BitTorrent protocol does not allow stopping a seeder from seeding (the only way to stop a member from seeding would be to ban the respective account - not a good solution methinks
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Before reading this forum, I had no idea that seed stealing was a problem (or even possible). Apparently neither did the seed stealer in question: He was merely attempting to super seed. With no rule in place he had no idea what he was doing is wrong - or at least frowned upon. Isn't this what rules are for: a listing of what is and is not allowed? No source code changes or even additional programing required.
+1
I browse the forum occasionally, but more seriously 4 times a year when I am holiday. This is the first time I have seen this brought up.
Although I can see how it is detriment to a slow uploader with poor ratio, I would have to say I lean more on the downloader side as file sharing should be about sharing the file as fast as possible.
In term of possible solution, adding this as a soft rule would make more people aware of it. In term of programming, the simplest way would be to add a op-out check box that would show up as a highlight next to the torrent name. This would add the word/graphic No Jump In at the beginning/end of the name. Clicking on this word/graphic would take you to the rule explaining why.
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Hello all,
I was VERY interested to find this discussion. It's a topic that I've been curious about for a while.
And after seeing the first page I was preparing some wider arguments.But after rerading posts by trukr http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=12710.msg59703#msg59703
And MrMazda http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=12710.msg59625#msg59625I feel a better balance to the argument has been made. I agree with most of the very sensible points they have made.
Firstly I'm not an innocent. I'm guilty of Jump-on / re-seed crimes, by definition of the first suggested new 'rules'.
That said I have never hijacked an uploader’s posts.Eh?? Doesn't make sense ??
Let me explain. A few times I've logged onto the site, looked at the 'Most wanted Torrents' and seen a few leechers against a red seeder (offline), small sympathy.
I've also seen a hundred or more leechers hoping for that seeder to end their wait. They get my attention. The seeder is offline. A hundred hopeful downloaders waiting on the seeders pleasure.
Isn't the first rule here seed 'continue until two or three have the torrent?'
So, then if I have the file, which I may well have got from the same source as the uplaoder; the files being identical, I will finish the seeder’s job for him. In such a situation I think of my self as the 'kind seeder fairy'.
If I am wrong please disabuse me.What is in it for me? Nothing. My ratio is fine. My seed points are embarrasing, 4K+, I have treated it as a badge of honour for keeping torrents alive. But after reading another thread on seed gifts I intend to do something about that - but that is another issue. And one that ties in nicely here.
I agree with trukr's comment that ultimately this is a file sharing site.
To put it bluntly if you aren't in a position to share then don't. Unlike file sharing forums we only allow one upload for any file - arguments about 1kb difference in file size really are not material.To illustrate, I had a disagreement recently with a member over a file. It was 500 Mb or so. It took three days to download. I know it can be difficult to upload. My maximum is 100Kb. But over night I can upload 1GB or more. It is a small hardship if you want to give.
The relationship between file sharing sites and torrent sites has changed hugely in recent years. Gaytorrent.ru was THE place to come to quality, available files. File sharing sites have grown dramatically.,mostly because of the money posters earn.
Now, files posted on the internet are uploaded here within hours. Files posted here are available on premium hosters within hours. It maybe a coincidence but my recent re-post, I claim no credit only thanks to the original uploader, was on the most prolific forum poster's thread within days. Not bad for a file years old but unavailable here until recently; Triga - White Van Man
So to uploaders 'rights'. Well, if you have an original file I will support your every argument.
Otherwise, if you have downloaded it from another forum and posted it here faster than anybody else a few facts that seem obvious. Again, please disabuse me.As the first uploader you gain the thanks and gift points from every grateful leecher. Despite some ingrates as the boss says.
Well that's it for Brownie points. Ewe said you lose the kudos of a seed ratio of one. I'll need him to explain that technicality to me.
But to the bigger picture: You found a fantastic piece of porn from a great studio. Decided to share it (illegally) with the poor people that can't afford to bye it.
There was queue hoping to post that here, but they missed out. I have been one of them. I've prepared a good page with great pics, then found I've missed out to a faster technician. Ce'st la vie! I was too slow.
So does the fastest man win the right to say 'I and only I have the right to seed this torrent' ?
When I first joined here the hardest lesson I learned was maintain your ratio. I had no idea about uploading torrents. I just seeded. I downloaded popular files and shared them. Then I continued to share. I still do.
My point, yes I got there at last. If a file is good then members will want it. Put your ego aside. You may not be the man to have completed the seed of the porn of the day; other's may have helped. But if you can only seed 500Mb a day what is the harm of allowing another to help? Just continue to seed. People will still want it! This board is about sharing. Or is it about your personal ratio?
And if you still feel you want to be the man in charge of the torrent. Remember where it came from. And the dozens of other posters on similar boards replicating the same file to the equal annoyance of the 'true' poster.
Uploaders are great, I applaud and encourage them. But to those that upload, then do not continue to seed or participate I take a different view.
They are here to give little, take much and beg for points, shame on you! You take the best and re-post it on other forums. You exploit others’ goodwill.
So do I want to hand control to that particular Mafia? No!The time spent policing secondary posters may be better spent policing members that download here then post elsewhere for a profit.
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@contra966: In your case you mentioned where the seeder is offline and there are over 100 leechers, I absolutely support the valid argument of the seeder was offline. In those cases, I do not feel it to be inappropriate to start jump on seeding. In fact, I actually encourage it under those circumstances.
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Thank you MrMazda for advocating the jump-on practice in special situations where the seeder can't or won't finish sharing the torrent.
These situations are fairly common.Today I saw this on Man & Man Media - Bareback Boys: Hot Young Boys http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=95239&dllist=1#seeders a hot title.
Cat Top 1-15 S/L Snatched
Twinks Man & Man Media - Bareback Boys: Hot … 1/153 0The seeder was offline. So I found the file and am seeding it now so the 153 patient men can get past 57%
The file isn't huge 1.37G and was uploaded on the 2011-01-15 07:35:06.His details are here:
User Connectable Uploaded Upspeed Downloaded Downspeed Ratio Completed Checked UserAgent
jacky75 No 991.64 MB 6.13 KB/s 0.00 kB 0 B/s Inf. 100.00% 08:05:43 uTorrent/2200(23703What I find troubling about the situation is that some generous leechers had given the uploader a Seedbonus Gift of 390.0
If they were given as a tip to ensure promptness it seems that was an empty gesture.The posters torrent description begins:
"Please give me some extra bonus points - I need them......
Please rate and re-seed. Bonus Points are always Greatly Appreciated..Thank you!"I've added these details because although some might say it is off-topic. It seems to me related to the discussions:
Seed Bonus Whores! http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=8291.msg30079#msg30079
and
Asking For Seed Bonus Gifts http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=7208.msg25018#msg25018I'm sure each case is different, but a simple starting point for many of those that need seed points may be to actually spend time seeding.
EDIT: (MrMazda 2011-01-16) - Corrected URL tags
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Again, in the case where the user is not connectible, that should be at the responsibility of the user to ensure that their configuration settings allow them to be connectible. In a case like that, I do not see it as a no no to be a jump on seeder when the user who uploaded the torrent is not connectible.
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why? being 'not connectible' only means that you need to wait until the next announce round (maximally 30 minutes)
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Because, amice, they first made a confusion with an "offline" user, thinking that if he was "offline" he won't seed anymore.
This is why I started a long reply yesterday afternoon, but before posting it, I found my sentences were too…energetic. As I didn't want to appear rude, I didn't post my reply but sent it to mgr only, asking him kindly to read my long answer and tell me if it was suitable to answer that way...or not.
After the little chat we had yesterday evening with Mgr and MrMazda, it appears that Mgr is thinking a lot of this "jump on" thing and he'll probably add some comments sooner or later.My answer (that I saved in the Draft folder) started with...
Hi all,
I don't understand what you mean by "the seeder is offline"
Offline means not connected to GT web site or to GT Forum, and an uploader doesn't need to be online during seeding.Apparently you mean the seeder is not "connectible" which hasn't the same meaning at all. Even if he's not connectible, he will upload to others, but not as much as if he was connectible (in fact, he'll get all new leechers names each 30 min, when he connects to GT tracker each 30 min, and will be able to upload to them only at that time)
... the rest of the answer is in Mgr's inbox...
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2) 2nd try : alter the whole .avi file by cutting 1/10th of seconds at the end of the file.
This can be done with good multimedia programs who extract parts of the movie without any recompression (though I guess all key frames are rewritten, but the movie itself stays unchanged) .
Now the "jump-on" guy won't be able to be added as "seeder" until he downloads a complete copy of the altered file.This course of action is the most effective way of preventing "seed jumping". Additionally, the steps taken to accomplish file alteration are no more complicated than the creation of torrent files themselves, a step that an uploading user has presumably already taken.
Seed jumping is a preventable risk. To consciously reject preventable action is to knowingly invite seed jumpers. Choosing to do nothing, while simultaneously expecting gaytorrent staff to take on the added responsibilty of creating and then enforcing a regime antithetical to seed jumping, is disingenuous. That member's convenience becomes the moderator's delay.
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why? being 'not connectible' only means that you need to wait until the next announce round (maximally 30 minutes)
True in some cases, but not always the case. In some cases, not being connectible can also mean that a firewall or port forward setting has not been properly configured and is blocking incoming traffic to your computer. In such a case, it doesn't matter how many times the tracker updates, it will yield the same result.
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True in some cases, but not always the case. In some cases, not being connectible can also mean that a firewall or port forward setting has not been properly configured and is blocking incoming traffic to your computer. In such a case, it doesn't matter how many times the tracker updates, it will yield the same result.
shouldn't happen. even if communication is being blocked by firewall to inside, they still are able to upload to others.
Because, amice, they first made a confusion with an "offline" user, thinking that if he was "offline" he won't seed anymore.
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Apparently you mean the seeder is not "connectible" which hasn't the same meaning at all. Even if he's not connectible, he will upload to others, but not as much as if he was connectible (in fact, he'll get all new leechers names each 30 min, when he connects to GT tracker each 30 min, and will be able to upload to them only at that time)in fact my posting was a reaction to MrMazda's last posting (that's why i didn't use quotes). now to you: either you are or aren't connectible, it has no impact on how much you upload to others; dataflow remains the same. the only difference is that someone may/can beat you in a certain time frame (fast-liners always should limit their upstreams because of this fact).
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Hello amice
Well you'll have to explain me that again please.Imho, if i'm not connectible and a leecher enters the swarm, I won't be able to upload to him until my client contacts GT tracker after 30min and get his IP, which means meantime that leecher will download from other users.
On the contrary, if I had been connectible, I could have upload to him as soon as he entered the swarm.I would like to say that I had both experiences as uploader (being not connectible and being connectible), and if I'm not wrong, I noticed my ratio was much better (on fresh torrents that I uploaded) when I was connectible, compared to the uploads I did when not connectible.
Maybe a very simple detailed example could help us ?
Imagine I'm not connectible and my upload speed is 100Kb/s (I wish it was the case lol), which means approx. 6000Kb/min (6Mb/min) => 360Mb/hAt 3pm exactly I upload a new torrent (size 150Mb)
At 3h25min, leecher #1 enters the swarm (leecher #1 has same upload speed as mine, 360Mb/h and his download speed is 3 times faster, for example, 1Gb/h)
As I'm not connectible, leecher #1 will have to wait a few minutes to start his download, until my client contacts the tracker (each 30 min)At 3h30min (which is 30 min after 3h) , my client contacts the tracker and finds the IP of leecher #1, so I start to upload the movie to him
As the movie is 150Mb size, leecher #1 will grab the whole movie in less than half an hour (my upload speed being of 360Mb/h , i.e. 180Mb/ 30min)At 3h31min, leecher #2 enters the swarm : let's say his upload and download speed are same as leecher #1
As I'm not connectible, I won't upload a single byte to leecher #2 until my client contacts GT tracker (next cycle will happen at 4pm)
But during these 29 min (between 3h31 and 4h), leecher #2 will be able to download the whole movie…from leecher #1 (leecher #2 should be able to download 150Mb in 29min, theorically speaking)At 4h, my client contacts the tracker, finds the IP of leecher #2, but as leecher #2 got the whole movie (from leecher #1), I won't upload anything more
So in the end, how much did I upload when I was not connectible ?
I uploaded exactly 100% of the movie (150Mb), which is a full copy, and not a single byte more.
Now if I had been connectible, things would have been very different :
At 3h31, when leecher #2 joined the swarm, I would have been able to immediately upload to him, which means I would have uploaded to both leechers same time (knowing that leechers 1 & 2 also upload/download from each other)
And how much would have been able to upload to both leechers same time ?
Utorrent help file answers this question (and self experience really confirms it) :
"With normal seeding methods, the initial seeder typically has to upload 150% to 200%, or even more, of the original data in before a full copy of the data has been distributed into the swarm."That is why, imho, the connectibility issue has a real effect on the amount uploaded. In my example :
- Not connectible => 150Mb uploaded (a full copy of the movie to leecher #1)
- Connectible => 225Mb uploaded (at least) because duplicates segments of the file would be sent to both leechers (as "initial seeding" is not selected)
But I'm not an expert at all in torrents (when you are), so if something is wrong in my example, please correct it and enlight us, we're just poor ignorant sinners in this complicated torrent world
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