New York undercounted C-19 deaths
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If what you are saying is true, then you'll need to explain it to the media.
Dying of C-19 regardless of when would obviously be listed as C-19, so no need to change the rules. So it doesn't make sense.,
We did have cases where people died of other things, like cancer, who never had C-19 but the cause of death was crossed out and C-19 penned in.
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@raphjd
Now that is a conspiracy theory! While it is true (every decent conspiracy theory needs a tiny grain of truth!) that blood tests of people who died in Dec '19 and Jan '20 have shown that COVID-19 was here before we originally thought it was... but with 200 people a day dying from COVID-19 in the US alone, do you really think people are trying to artificially inflate numbers from a year ago? To what end??? No, they're trying to make the numbers more correct.Also, let's be clear: there are TWO SETS of "death numbers":
- Count of people who died with COVID-19
- Count of people who dies of COVID-19
You should be careful not to conflate them - because they both tell stories, but rather different stories.
That said, since we're talking NY here, I see in the news today that Gov. Cuomo has said he doesn't believe the experts (expersts in air quotes)... NY has suddenly lost 9 TOP* Health Officials (NY TIMES link).
Aside: Real News reports bad things about all sides of the Political spectrum... being anti-Trump is not the same as being pro-anyone!
It seems to me that Cuomo's been drinking his own Kool-Aid! Experts are what guided NY from being a True American Horror Story in March/April of last year, to having some sense of control over this virus. A lot of credit was given to Gov. Cuomo for his handling of that part of the crisis - especially his daily briefings that were full of data, short on speculation, and devoid of hoo-raah pronouncements.
Here's hoping he admits that he was high on something and gets back to being a rational human being.... if not, I hope voters support him (that is, FAIL TO SUPPORT HIM) the same way they did that other guy who eschewed the experts.... you remember him, the Orange one....
Follow the science ... not the politicians!
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The example I gave of the guy who died of cancer is a real one. There was zero evidence that he had C-19, but someone thought it was a good idea to cross out cancer and pen in C-19 as the cause of death.
China and the WHO lied to us about C-19 for ages. We know that.
I didn't read the article, but it appears several Dems blocked NY nursing home data subpoenas to protect Cuomo.
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@raphjd
The problem isn't whether one (or even a dozen) changes were made that weren't factually accurate. We're not talking about a dozen deaths vs. twenty. STATISTICALLY speaking, getting one wrong here and there is immaterial and unimportant.The problem is the characterization that this is a wide-spread practice that all-but-invalidates all the COVID-19 data that has been collected. That's hyperbole.
The same goes for the voter fraud claims: when pressed under oath (meaning that, if he lied or even exaggerated, he risked is law license), Rudy Giuliani admitted to knowing of "only about a dozen" cases of actual vote fraud. A far cry from "massive fraud", and not nearly enough to challenge the results of the election overall.
Was there fraud? Sure! There are bad actors in every election (including 2016!)... the question isn't "was there any fraud, but rather was there enough fraud? And the answer there, according to all of the experts: Democrat and Republican alike is a resounding NO!
Hyperbole has a legitimate role in making a point. It has absolutely NO legitimate role in making a case.
BUT AGAIN, getting back to NY:
Cuomo (and DeBlasio) taking over vaccine deployments, overruling (and dismissing) the EXPERTS is malfeasance. These bastards want to have the glory of being the General in charge of coming to the rescue.... and don't seem to realize that Eisenhower virtually never fired his own weapon, other than on a shooting range! He didn't need to! Leadership isn't in the doing, it's in the coordinating.Allegory:
I used to be a Boy Scout Scoutmaster. One of the basic tenets of Boy Scouting is the idea of teaching the older youth how to be leaders. When it came to execution (e.g. on a camping trip), the more we could let the boy leaders do, the better a job we were doing as the adult leaders of the Troop.One summer, a group of parents and their sons came to join our troop, and the biggest loudmouth of the "pack" came to me at the end of a campout. He was incensed - I had "barely lifted a finger" the whole trip! "The boys did everything!" - and the look on his face when my response was "Good! That's the way it's supposed to be!" was precious!
He and his group decided to start their own, new Boy Scout troop (do it right, not like that other guy!) - which meant they had to be trained. Unfortunately for those parents, I was on the District Training Committee, and it was my turn to run the training program (at the time it had the awkward name: Scoutmastership Fundamentals). So they showed up to be trained in how to be good Boy Scout Leaders - and the guy they thought had it all wrong was their course director!
I pulled them aside and explained - during their training, they would see me actually do very little - not because I was lazy, but because I had spent weeks planning, training, and rehearsing with my staff - the same as those camping trips went off so well because the boy leaders and I had spent weeks preparing... so they were prepared to lead, and I was really there just in case things went sideways.
THAT IS WHAT LEADERSHIP IS
Sorry for the long diatribe - the point is, GOOD LEADERS often aren't recognized for their actions... and that fact just GRATES on some politicians - who want credit for everything (and accept responsibility for nothing).
Cuomo and DeBlasio will be (hopefully) eviscerated in the public square for interfering with the professionals who, not surprisingly, know what they're doing! The same as Trump was for his foibles, falsehoods, and evasions. (IMHO, he should have been taken more to task for dismantling the White House Directorate of Global Health Security and Biodefense - many called it the Pandemic Response Team. Even though the decision to do away with it was John Bolton's, Trump approved of it... this is where leadership is supposed to take responsibility, but politicians run away from that word like it was a curse or something!)
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Talking about the vote, Pennsylvania violated the voting law by changing the voting law via the Sec of State, not the legislature.
Ilhan Omar's district had ballot harvesting for cash, as seen in the Project Veritas video.
The Texas woman in another Project Veritas video is charged with 134 counts of felony voter fraud.
I previously posted about the woman just outside of Detroit who committed voter fraud for 20+ years that she was an employee of the county's elections department.
The Carter Baker Commission unanimously declared that unsolicited mail-in ballots were extremely dangerous.
Amazon, previously a cheerleader for mail-in ballots, is now against them that their employees are voting to unionize claiming that mail-in ballots are rife with corruption.
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@raphjd
I don’t know how our country’s education level is so poor. The COVID-19 outbreak lasted for a year. As a result, some people are blaming China. You remembered that it was the place where the epidemic broke out. Your words are slandering them. China is almost healed, but we are almost all infected with more than 26 million people. Isn't this a problem in our country? Why don't we wear masks? Go and see that China now wears masks whenever you go out. This is why their country can curb the disease. -
@walker1234
While it's true that China has all-but-defeated COVID-19, the fact is that when it was discovered there, they did a lot to cover it up.I think the US is in a position where this virus hit us at a particularly vulnerable time: we are so deeply divided (polarized?) politically, that when one man (Trump) started to downplay the virus, the simple act of protecting yourself and others by wearing a $1 mask (or even free!) became a political statement!
We've suffered as a result. We're learning a hard lesson: that freedom in this country, and indeed freedom everywhere, is a double-edged sword. By not wearing masks, we may (or may not) have been demonstrating our support for Donald Trump, but we were definitely contributing to the spread of this disease.
That said, I wouldn't trade the freedom in this country for the oppressive communist rule of China... not even for a New York minute, and not even to have improved our COVID-19 responses... Freedom is not free... indeed, it often costs lives, and often the lives of innocents.
Am I defending the absurd notion that wearing a mask was legitimately a political statement, or that requiring masks was somehow an infringement on people's rights? Oh hell no! That was political correctness run amok... and it's costing people their lives, and even more people their livelihoods!
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@raphjd said in New York undercounted C-19 deaths:
We did have cases where people died of other things, like cancer, who never had C-19 but the cause of death was crossed out and C-19 penned in.
Is there a reputable source for this?
And has it been demonstrated that these changes, whether intentional or error, have enough impact to statistically change the massive death count from COVID in the UK?
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One thing at a time: (you have a bad habit of starting with one argument, then as we're beginning to get into it, you start with a "what about this" foray into something else! A debate coach would tell you this is a classic "Red Herring fallacy")
Pennsylvania
If there were problems with the vote count, or the interpretation (or even the implementation) of the laws of the State of Pennsylvania, they are up to the Legislators (and courts) in Pennsylvania to decide! NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!If there were legislators from Pennsylvania who took offense at how the election was being run, they had multiple opportunities to speak up, say something, file a court case (THEY would have had standing, where the State of Texas did not), or even direct the Secretary of State and/or Supervisors of Elections to do things differently. They did not. The Electoral College votes in Pennsylvania (as they were in all 50 States) were approved by the Legislature (part of the certification process, and duly noted by the Vice President as he read each State's counts on Jan 6).
One of the INGENIOUS (although whether intentional or not is a matter for debate) aspects of our voting system in the US is that it is not centrally managed! If you want to "rig the election" for county commissioner, you just have to foul up the local Supervisor of Elections... not that hard, but I can assure you they're trying to make sure it doesn't happen...
But, if you want to affect the election of, say a US Senator or Governor, you have to foul up dozens of Supervisors of Elections (1 for each county - or whatever your State calls a county)! And, again, they're working really hard to make sure you fail!
Now, if you want to affect the election of the US President... well, you have TENS OF THOUSANDS of jurisdictions you have to affect! ALL of whom are working really hard at discovering any impropriety.
NOT ONLY does each State run its elections by its own laws, but each county runs its elections according to their own laws!
This makes it incredibly hard (certainly not impossible) to have sufficient impact on an election to both alter the results and remain undetected!
If you want to make it easier to commit fraud in a national election, then by all means, nationalize the voting mechanisms!
Ballot Harvesting
Such a great term - what does it mean, though? It means people went to places, like retirement homes & hospitals, and collected ballots from the people there. What people? Voters, who had every right to vote, but had obstacles to being able to complete the task.
Their votes are tied (in many cases, as-if they were absentee ballots) to the voters, so there is traceability: not the actual ballot to the actual person - that would violate the concept of secret ballot, but those ballots are put into envelopes - sealed envelopes - that have the name, date, and signature of the voter on them. In some jurisdictions, they're even NOTARIZED. How is that a fraud?
NOTE: in some states, this is legal, where in others is it not. It's up to the individual States to decide - NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!Texas woman 134 counts of voter fraud
OK, so one lady accounted for 134 extra votes... in Texas. I doubt there was a single race in Texas that 134 votes would have changed. Plus, the woman was caught (remember those Supervisors of Elections? they're not stupid!).unsolicited mail-in ballots
Again, the assumption here is that these ballots are somehow anonymously filled out and accepted as valid votes. That's outright hogwash. I can't speak for every state, but here in Florida (not exactly well known for our voting prowess LOL), every vote is accountable to a voter:- at the end of the day in the voting center, the number of votes in the box must be less than or equal to the number of people who signed in and received a ballot. When a voter asks for a new ballot, the old one is destroyed: in front of witnesses.
- mail-in ballots, regardless of how they arrive, are checked against voter rolls, and signatures are verified (as well as other means). Mail-in balloting is processed as it arrives,up until 2-days before the election. At that time, the "rosters" for each precinct are prepared so that workers will know if someone tries to vote multiple times.
I could go on, but the manuals about how to properly match each vote to a voter are lengthy and detailed. Suffice it to say: the people who run our elections are professionals They aren't new at this, and I doubt that you or I, if we worked at it for months ahead of time, could find a way to thwart their security protocols without being detected.
Amazon
Again, it is a myth that mail-in-voting is somehow untraceable to specific voters.... a myth that works for you solely if your goal is to reduce turnout! But in a Democracy, that should never be our goal! The goal of virtually every Supervisor of Elections in the US is (or should be) to allow EVERY ELIGIBLE VOTER to cast their vote, and to make it as easy and convenient as possible to do so without sacrificing the integrity of the process.MANY OF THESE PEOPLE DEVOTE THEIR LIVES TO THIS! These are not "weekend warriors" called in to plan and supervise elections a few weeks out of the year! These are professionals who plan and prepare ALL YEAR, EVERY YEAR for elections!
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I'll have to look for an article on it.
Well, like with the NY thing, how do we know unless we investigate it and be open about it.
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@raphjd
HEY! A post I can completely and totally agree with!!!
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I wonder if you were so forgiving when Trump won and liberals were screeching "Russian collusion".
Clearly, you support the swamp with your constantly making excuses for it.
"They are professionals" Do you mean like Brenda Snipes and co in Broward County? She was dirty as they come.
I also already gave you the one about the woman outside of Detroit who had been committing voter fraud for 20+ years that she worked for the county (Wayne County, I think) election department. I posted about it in this section already with a link to the story.
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So, out of over 3000 counties (or, by any other name), there have been TWO with corrupt officials.
If you ask me, that's a pretty damned good result!
NOT, mind you, that I approve of their actions. I think that supervisors of elections need to be monitored and supervised as well (that's where each State's Secretary of State - or, by any other name) comes in.
@raphjd, you seem to think I want to excuse, ignore, or otherwise wipe away these abuses... and that is completely false.
I just don't think they are an excuse to throw out an entire election... especially since the amount of fraud and abuse in the 2020 elections (at least what's been discovered so far) is historically low!!!
It is impossible to manage the vote in a country of 300 million citizens and expect there to be no errors, omissions, fraud, waste, abuse, or mismanagement. What you can do is hire professionals to manage the task, and work endlessly and tirelessly to improve the process each time. The 2020 results (where Republicans made gains in almost every measurable category, save for President) would seem to bear this out!
It's easy to look at a few bad apples and screech that you should torch the whole batch (hell, this election cycle, it seems they want to torch the whole orchard!!!), but the truth is there will always be a few bad apples in the bunch. We can (and do) work hard to identify them and root them out.
Still, we should not ignore them - for allowing a single bad actor to get away with abuse of our electoral system would invite others! It is only by our constant vigilance that we will be able to successfully preserve, protect, and defend our democracy.
That doesn't mean turning a blind-eye to misdeeds when they occur, but neither does it mean throwing out nearly 7-million votes in Pennsylvania because a few dozen (even a few hundred!) might be suspect.
We did the best we've ever done in 2020. Now, we have to look for ways to make it better. And, yes, that means looking at the way Pennsylvania made allowances for COVID-19 - but that also means letting Pennsylvania sort that out!
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@raphjd said in New York undercounted C-19 deaths:
I'll have to look for an article on it.
Well, like with the NY thing, how do we know unless we investigate it and be open about it.
I can't wait.
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It'll take a while since there are so many C-19 articles
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@bi4smooth
Brother, your remarks are really ridiculous. Believe me, I have more say than you. After graduating from university, I went to China to develop. I am now living in Wuhan. Even if we suffer a major disaster here, we are now the world. Go to the safest place. Don’t tell me about freedom. The premise of freedom is to live well. Even though there are basically no cases in China, we still wear masks every day and don’t gather. I finally know why so many people died in our country. Because of Trump’s inaction, as voters, you should have a great responsibility. China has always reported the daily epidemic situation, and now is no exception. The people here It is the most trusted government in the world. Of course, the government also sacrificed the economy in exchange for the health of the people, but what about our country? Every day, many people get infected, get sick and die, but what is our government doing? If you don’t believe my remarks, you can come to China to see and travel in person. Of course, China does not welcome these pathogens. Our American media will always be biased against China. But if you look at how many people died from the vaccine in our country, did you give it free? At least my colleagues now have free injections. They are in superb condition, but what about you? Why did the EU gradually abandon us, and why did 20 million of our country’s vaccines disappear out of thin air? Can you have advanced medical assistance at any time like the rich? Stop dreaming, brother. Don't always feel that our country is strong one day, at least this year I have seen our country's hypocrisy, arrogance, and arrogance. Obviously, China first provided the DNA profile of the virus, but what about it? We do not pay attention to it. Why has the epidemic in China disappeared, but the symptoms in our country are getting worse? -
@walker1234
I certainly grant you that China has dealt with COVID-19 more efficiently than most of the rest of the world. Authoritarian regimes can do that. Given.I also agree that the US response to COVID-19 would be laughable if it weren't for the awful, human tragedy - and you are equally right that our former President, Donald Trump, is a leading cause for the absurdly awful position we find ourselves in today.
But I still maintain that having our freedoms are generally worth the cost. It's been a particularly high cost with the anti-maskers, and the anti-vaxers, but all good things have a cost.
You can believe that China's system is superior. That is your right. I neither claim, nor require others agree with me. We don't learn by being the same, we learn by being DIFFERENT and through the free exchange of ideas and experiences.
More than anything else, even at 57 years of age, I am a student - still hungry for new knowledge and new experiences.
Sad to say, though I've traveled a lot of this crazy world, the closest I've come to China is Hong Kong (before 1999, when it was still a UK territory). I am hoping to travel more when I retire - and China (what many call "mainland China") is on my "bucket list"
From all I've read and seen, it is an amazingly beautiful country. -
@bi4smooth
In the six years since I came to China, I really think that our country misunderstands China too deeply. The people here are super kind and treat me very well. Especially the landlord takes care of me, teaches me Mandarin and the local dialect of Wuhan. As a volunteer last year, the people here are very responsible. I finally know why China’s economic achievements in just a few decades have surpassed that of Europe and the United States for hundreds of years. The people here are hardworking. I think young people in our country should not believe the fake news reported by the media, and go to other countries in the world. I also welcome you to come to China to experience local culture and experience local cuisine. It is no exaggeration to say that Chinese cuisine is actually the richest. We are very safe here. Even if we come out to eat at night, we don’t have to be afraid. This is not as chaotic as our country. I also hope you come to China to see the night scene and development of this city. -
@walker1234
Our country demonizes a lot of other countries - especially non "Western" ones.I have visited "war-torn" Israel and Palestine. I have visited the "evil empire" of Iran. I have visited many parts of Europe and Central America. (I hope to visit South America 2-summers from now... Brazil, Argentina, & Chile are on the agenda so far.)
In the vast majority of cases, the people themselves were, warm, kind, generous (sometimes to a fault), and giving.
Honestly, while we may have our freedoms (which is a Governmental thing, not a Societal one), I personally think Americans in public are some of the coldest, most cruel and uncaring, most judgemental, and self-centered of societies I have encountered in my travels. Get them in private and many are very different (kind, giving, generous, open, etc) - but that's where the societies seem to differ...
- When I got lost in Paris once, I was actually approached by someone offering to help me find my way...
- When I got lost in Iran, a taxi driver took me back to my hotel - free of charge!
- When I got lost in Los Angeles, I had to go to 3 different convenience stores to find someone who would even tell me what part of LA I was in!
(I know - it seems I got lost a lot - but a lot of my traveling predates smartphones and apps to make sure you are NOT lost - EVER!)
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@bi4smooth
This is true. I have been to Iran, but it is not as damning as our country said. I now find that as long as it is vilified by the media of our country, that country must actually be worth visiting. Yesterday I watched the BBC report on China with wrong information, which made me mad. I really think this country is very good. If it weren't for this country's hard to get a green card, I really want to immigrate to this beautiful country. I think that every country has problems, but in 2020 I found that our country is really ugly, especially when the Trump administration is not paying attention to the lives of ordinary people at all when the epidemic is so severe, causing my relatives to be C-19 And death, I think it is a wise decision not to return to the United States in early 2020. Brother, I hope you stay away from disease.
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