New York undercounted C-19 deaths
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@raphjd
When, exactly, did liberals storm and invade the Capitol Building (or, for that matter, the Supreme Court)?There was an incident in Washington (State, not DC) where protesters of various ilks (including liberals and white supremacists - what strange bedfellows that made!) stormed a police precinct and did quite a bit of damage. I've never claimed that theirs was protected speech - quite the contrary: it was illegal and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. (Probably using some of the same techniques as are being used against the Capitol mob: video surveillance and idiots posting about their illegal activities on social media!)
It's not a hard concept:
- Gather outside with signs and bullhorns and shout and scream -- all protected, for liberal, conservative, even nazi's and communists!
- Break into the building, assault police officers (what makes the Capitol Police different? They're the ones attacked by the angry mob on Jan 6... that's it!), destroy property - all NOT protected speech. Not for liberals, not for conservatives, not for whites, not for blacks.
To be sure, there are actions protesters can do that is far short of breaking and entering that is borderline illegal: like blocking traffic, or crossing police lines that have been setup to keep demonstrators apart from others. For the sake of brevity, let's just call those grey areas and leave them for another discussion.
I don't know of any sane person who thinks the riot on Jan 6 was in any way legal, protected speech.
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Seattle's mayor called it the "summer of love". The CNN reporter stood in front of a burning building and called the "protests" mostly peaceful.
It's nice to see you can justify violence by one group while condemning violence by the other.
Why can't conservatives also get pissed off by how things are going in the country?
You didn't see where he said I based my beliefs on "conspiracy theories and partial (to be generous) data" while he prefers hard data? If you did, then you just keep believing he's not trying to insult me.
Correct, CTer is someone who believes in conspiracy theories.
Maybe you should watch Tucker Carlson and other conservative news people. Liberals have been calling for ending free speech for those they disagree with for at least 10 years. Tucker and others did segments on these people and showed their tweets, CNN interviews, etc, etc.
There's been talk of vetting the military to expel wrong thinkers.
There's been talk of expelling Reps and Senators who disputed the Electoral College votes in the last election. This despite the fact that in 2000, Mad Maxine disputed GWB's election and disputed the vote, despite not having a Senator that agreed with her. Her response was "I don't give a damned about the rules, he wasn't elected by the people". Democrats have despited the votes for both of GWB's elections and Trump's, but now it's "treason" when Repubs do it to Biden.
Liberals beat their dicks every time social media bans a conservative for wrong think.
Liberals love their cancel culture.
Liberals lied about Trump for 5 years.
Liberals lied in defending Biden, Kamala, and the rest of the DNC.
Liberals prevented the truth to come out about the Biden family business.
Liberals, namely the Obama administration, stripped college males of Due Process, under the guise of law. Evil Betsy DeVos returned it.
Liberals hated Biden's 1994 crime bill, rightfully so, but got butt hurt when Trump reversed most of it.
Liberals whine like little bitches that they can't get a gay cake, but vote for the author of that homophobic law and one of it's co-sponsors; Schumer and Biden, respectively.
It was the Bill Clinton Dems that gave the country the 3 most homophobic laws and the most racist law it ever had.
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@raphjd
If you think I've tried to insult you, you've taken my postings far too personally - and I apologize. I don't mean to insult anyone.... but I also don't think pointing out flaws in your arguments is insulting you! Especially since most of your arguments come from conservative radio & tv personalities.Well, I assume that's there you get them. i could be wrong. Still:
- you reference them (conservative news outlets) - at times directly
- you are unable to defend (or go into any detail) on some of your arguments, presumably because you don't really understand where they come from - you're just parroting the talking-heads you listen to.
When I deride the anti-Romney talk-show-host because he's portraying guilt by association, I'm not attacking you personally, even though you did post the link yourself.
Likewise, when I deride your doing the same thing - attempting to link The Lincoln Project to a sex offender, in spite of the fact that they denounced him and his actions within 24-hours of being notified... again, a bold attempt at guilt by association
And I cried foul in both cases.I have asked you repeatedly to identify this concept of "Due Process" that Betsy DeVos supposedly restored... to no avail.
The only real attempt to expel any member of Congress has come against the nutball Marjorie Taylor Greene - and its not for voting on or about the Electoral College - no, it's for actively calling for the assassination of elected, US, public officials.
Sure there have been motions - there are 1000's of idiotic motions made by the 535 members of Congress every year. Most get absolutely no traction. The above referenced nut-job congresswoman also filed a motion to impeach Joe Biden - before he even signed his first Executive Order!
You are perfectly correct in noting that there have been attempts to refute electoral college votes in the past - by Dems and Republicans alike. It's a part of the process. Truly NONE has ever come close to passing.
However, the whole idea is a mis-reading of the law and Constitution: the governing rules stem from the Civil War, when some states sent multiple slates of delegates to the Electoral College in an attempt to de-legitimize the election of Lincoln (or anyone else, for that matter). The intent of the rules was to give Congress the ability to deal with MULTIPLE slates of electors, not to just toss-out perfectly legitimate, approved delegates from States. We need to clarify this intention - and there's no time like the present!
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Are you saying I should refer to the news outlets that are proven liars?
The same ones that lied about Russian Collusion for 4 years, the same ones that lied about Hunter's laptop and Biden corruption? The same ones that refuse to call out Kamala's lies?
I have gone into long-form debates and no one ever reads them. As you said, I just use worthless conservative conspiracy sites.
Mitt is garbage, with or without anything to do with the sex offender.
Google Obama's "Dear Colleagues letters". The Dept of Ed, falsely under the guise of law (admitted in front of Congress) told colleges to strip males of Due Process when accused of sex crimes or sexual harassment. It was part of the policy that if a male and female both get drunk and have sex, only the guy is guilty of rape.
This was all back when Mattress Girl, Jackie at UVA, Take Back the Night Girl, Duke LaCross and all the rest were going on and they all turned out to be lies.
Democrats and their cheerleaders in the media are still screeching for them to be expelled. Of course, this is all blatantly dishonest but they don't care and never have.
Have you forgotten Mad Maxine's countless speeches to harass (if you see them in a grocery store or a gas station, draw a crowd, get in their faces and tell them they aren't wanted here or anywhere) Trump admin people? She's not the only one.
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@raphjd said in New York undercounted C-19 deaths:
If I test positive for C-19 today and 3weeks and 6 days later I get killed by being run over by a cross town bus, it's listed as a C-19 death. The previous UK counting method was if I ever die from anything after a positive C-19 test it would count as a C-19 death.
Incorrect.
The cause of death there would be put down as 'vehicular impact'. It might be noted that you had COVID19, but unless your COVID19 symtoms directly caused you to run out in front of a moving vehicle, or caused the vehicle to veer into you, it will merely be a footnote, not the cause.
Also, the '28 days from a postive test' is a fudge by UK gov to undercount their figures. You have the farcical situation of people dying, in hospital, suffering from severe COVID, who die 38 days after admittal, and 35 days since their test result.
Those people are not caught in the daily figures, but they will be counted by ONS as the death cert will correctly record COVID as the cause.
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If what you are saying is true, then you'll need to explain it to the media.
Dying of C-19 regardless of when would obviously be listed as C-19, so no need to change the rules. So it doesn't make sense.,
We did have cases where people died of other things, like cancer, who never had C-19 but the cause of death was crossed out and C-19 penned in.
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@raphjd
Now that is a conspiracy theory! While it is true (every decent conspiracy theory needs a tiny grain of truth!) that blood tests of people who died in Dec '19 and Jan '20 have shown that COVID-19 was here before we originally thought it was... but with 200 people a day dying from COVID-19 in the US alone, do you really think people are trying to artificially inflate numbers from a year ago? To what end??? No, they're trying to make the numbers more correct.Also, let's be clear: there are TWO SETS of "death numbers":
- Count of people who died with COVID-19
- Count of people who dies of COVID-19
You should be careful not to conflate them - because they both tell stories, but rather different stories.
That said, since we're talking NY here, I see in the news today that Gov. Cuomo has said he doesn't believe the experts (expersts in air quotes)... NY has suddenly lost 9 TOP* Health Officials (NY TIMES link).
Aside: Real News reports bad things about all sides of the Political spectrum... being anti-Trump is not the same as being pro-anyone!
It seems to me that Cuomo's been drinking his own Kool-Aid! Experts are what guided NY from being a True American Horror Story in March/April of last year, to having some sense of control over this virus. A lot of credit was given to Gov. Cuomo for his handling of that part of the crisis - especially his daily briefings that were full of data, short on speculation, and devoid of hoo-raah pronouncements.
Here's hoping he admits that he was high on something and gets back to being a rational human being.... if not, I hope voters support him (that is, FAIL TO SUPPORT HIM) the same way they did that other guy who eschewed the experts.... you remember him, the Orange one....
Follow the science ... not the politicians!
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The example I gave of the guy who died of cancer is a real one. There was zero evidence that he had C-19, but someone thought it was a good idea to cross out cancer and pen in C-19 as the cause of death.
China and the WHO lied to us about C-19 for ages. We know that.
I didn't read the article, but it appears several Dems blocked NY nursing home data subpoenas to protect Cuomo.
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@raphjd
The problem isn't whether one (or even a dozen) changes were made that weren't factually accurate. We're not talking about a dozen deaths vs. twenty. STATISTICALLY speaking, getting one wrong here and there is immaterial and unimportant.The problem is the characterization that this is a wide-spread practice that all-but-invalidates all the COVID-19 data that has been collected. That's hyperbole.
The same goes for the voter fraud claims: when pressed under oath (meaning that, if he lied or even exaggerated, he risked is law license), Rudy Giuliani admitted to knowing of "only about a dozen" cases of actual vote fraud. A far cry from "massive fraud", and not nearly enough to challenge the results of the election overall.
Was there fraud? Sure! There are bad actors in every election (including 2016!)... the question isn't "was there any fraud, but rather was there enough fraud? And the answer there, according to all of the experts: Democrat and Republican alike is a resounding NO!
Hyperbole has a legitimate role in making a point. It has absolutely NO legitimate role in making a case.
BUT AGAIN, getting back to NY:
Cuomo (and DeBlasio) taking over vaccine deployments, overruling (and dismissing) the EXPERTS is malfeasance. These bastards want to have the glory of being the General in charge of coming to the rescue.... and don't seem to realize that Eisenhower virtually never fired his own weapon, other than on a shooting range! He didn't need to! Leadership isn't in the doing, it's in the coordinating.Allegory:
I used to be a Boy Scout Scoutmaster. One of the basic tenets of Boy Scouting is the idea of teaching the older youth how to be leaders. When it came to execution (e.g. on a camping trip), the more we could let the boy leaders do, the better a job we were doing as the adult leaders of the Troop.One summer, a group of parents and their sons came to join our troop, and the biggest loudmouth of the "pack" came to me at the end of a campout. He was incensed - I had "barely lifted a finger" the whole trip! "The boys did everything!" - and the look on his face when my response was "Good! That's the way it's supposed to be!" was precious!
He and his group decided to start their own, new Boy Scout troop (do it right, not like that other guy!) - which meant they had to be trained. Unfortunately for those parents, I was on the District Training Committee, and it was my turn to run the training program (at the time it had the awkward name: Scoutmastership Fundamentals). So they showed up to be trained in how to be good Boy Scout Leaders - and the guy they thought had it all wrong was their course director!
I pulled them aside and explained - during their training, they would see me actually do very little - not because I was lazy, but because I had spent weeks planning, training, and rehearsing with my staff - the same as those camping trips went off so well because the boy leaders and I had spent weeks preparing... so they were prepared to lead, and I was really there just in case things went sideways.
THAT IS WHAT LEADERSHIP IS
Sorry for the long diatribe - the point is, GOOD LEADERS often aren't recognized for their actions... and that fact just GRATES on some politicians - who want credit for everything (and accept responsibility for nothing).
Cuomo and DeBlasio will be (hopefully) eviscerated in the public square for interfering with the professionals who, not surprisingly, know what they're doing! The same as Trump was for his foibles, falsehoods, and evasions. (IMHO, he should have been taken more to task for dismantling the White House Directorate of Global Health Security and Biodefense - many called it the Pandemic Response Team. Even though the decision to do away with it was John Bolton's, Trump approved of it... this is where leadership is supposed to take responsibility, but politicians run away from that word like it was a curse or something!)
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Talking about the vote, Pennsylvania violated the voting law by changing the voting law via the Sec of State, not the legislature.
Ilhan Omar's district had ballot harvesting for cash, as seen in the Project Veritas video.
The Texas woman in another Project Veritas video is charged with 134 counts of felony voter fraud.
I previously posted about the woman just outside of Detroit who committed voter fraud for 20+ years that she was an employee of the county's elections department.
The Carter Baker Commission unanimously declared that unsolicited mail-in ballots were extremely dangerous.
Amazon, previously a cheerleader for mail-in ballots, is now against them that their employees are voting to unionize claiming that mail-in ballots are rife with corruption.
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@raphjd
I don’t know how our country’s education level is so poor. The COVID-19 outbreak lasted for a year. As a result, some people are blaming China. You remembered that it was the place where the epidemic broke out. Your words are slandering them. China is almost healed, but we are almost all infected with more than 26 million people. Isn't this a problem in our country? Why don't we wear masks? Go and see that China now wears masks whenever you go out. This is why their country can curb the disease. -
@walker1234
While it's true that China has all-but-defeated COVID-19, the fact is that when it was discovered there, they did a lot to cover it up.I think the US is in a position where this virus hit us at a particularly vulnerable time: we are so deeply divided (polarized?) politically, that when one man (Trump) started to downplay the virus, the simple act of protecting yourself and others by wearing a $1 mask (or even free!) became a political statement!
We've suffered as a result. We're learning a hard lesson: that freedom in this country, and indeed freedom everywhere, is a double-edged sword. By not wearing masks, we may (or may not) have been demonstrating our support for Donald Trump, but we were definitely contributing to the spread of this disease.
That said, I wouldn't trade the freedom in this country for the oppressive communist rule of China... not even for a New York minute, and not even to have improved our COVID-19 responses... Freedom is not free... indeed, it often costs lives, and often the lives of innocents.
Am I defending the absurd notion that wearing a mask was legitimately a political statement, or that requiring masks was somehow an infringement on people's rights? Oh hell no! That was political correctness run amok... and it's costing people their lives, and even more people their livelihoods!
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@raphjd said in New York undercounted C-19 deaths:
We did have cases where people died of other things, like cancer, who never had C-19 but the cause of death was crossed out and C-19 penned in.
Is there a reputable source for this?
And has it been demonstrated that these changes, whether intentional or error, have enough impact to statistically change the massive death count from COVID in the UK?
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One thing at a time: (you have a bad habit of starting with one argument, then as we're beginning to get into it, you start with a "what about this" foray into something else! A debate coach would tell you this is a classic "Red Herring fallacy")
Pennsylvania
If there were problems with the vote count, or the interpretation (or even the implementation) of the laws of the State of Pennsylvania, they are up to the Legislators (and courts) in Pennsylvania to decide! NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!If there were legislators from Pennsylvania who took offense at how the election was being run, they had multiple opportunities to speak up, say something, file a court case (THEY would have had standing, where the State of Texas did not), or even direct the Secretary of State and/or Supervisors of Elections to do things differently. They did not. The Electoral College votes in Pennsylvania (as they were in all 50 States) were approved by the Legislature (part of the certification process, and duly noted by the Vice President as he read each State's counts on Jan 6).
One of the INGENIOUS (although whether intentional or not is a matter for debate) aspects of our voting system in the US is that it is not centrally managed! If you want to "rig the election" for county commissioner, you just have to foul up the local Supervisor of Elections... not that hard, but I can assure you they're trying to make sure it doesn't happen...
But, if you want to affect the election of, say a US Senator or Governor, you have to foul up dozens of Supervisors of Elections (1 for each county - or whatever your State calls a county)! And, again, they're working really hard to make sure you fail!
Now, if you want to affect the election of the US President... well, you have TENS OF THOUSANDS of jurisdictions you have to affect! ALL of whom are working really hard at discovering any impropriety.
NOT ONLY does each State run its elections by its own laws, but each county runs its elections according to their own laws!
This makes it incredibly hard (certainly not impossible) to have sufficient impact on an election to both alter the results and remain undetected!
If you want to make it easier to commit fraud in a national election, then by all means, nationalize the voting mechanisms!
Ballot Harvesting
Such a great term - what does it mean, though? It means people went to places, like retirement homes & hospitals, and collected ballots from the people there. What people? Voters, who had every right to vote, but had obstacles to being able to complete the task.
Their votes are tied (in many cases, as-if they were absentee ballots) to the voters, so there is traceability: not the actual ballot to the actual person - that would violate the concept of secret ballot, but those ballots are put into envelopes - sealed envelopes - that have the name, date, and signature of the voter on them. In some jurisdictions, they're even NOTARIZED. How is that a fraud?
NOTE: in some states, this is legal, where in others is it not. It's up to the individual States to decide - NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!Texas woman 134 counts of voter fraud
OK, so one lady accounted for 134 extra votes... in Texas. I doubt there was a single race in Texas that 134 votes would have changed. Plus, the woman was caught (remember those Supervisors of Elections? they're not stupid!).unsolicited mail-in ballots
Again, the assumption here is that these ballots are somehow anonymously filled out and accepted as valid votes. That's outright hogwash. I can't speak for every state, but here in Florida (not exactly well known for our voting prowess LOL), every vote is accountable to a voter:- at the end of the day in the voting center, the number of votes in the box must be less than or equal to the number of people who signed in and received a ballot. When a voter asks for a new ballot, the old one is destroyed: in front of witnesses.
- mail-in ballots, regardless of how they arrive, are checked against voter rolls, and signatures are verified (as well as other means). Mail-in balloting is processed as it arrives,up until 2-days before the election. At that time, the "rosters" for each precinct are prepared so that workers will know if someone tries to vote multiple times.
I could go on, but the manuals about how to properly match each vote to a voter are lengthy and detailed. Suffice it to say: the people who run our elections are professionals They aren't new at this, and I doubt that you or I, if we worked at it for months ahead of time, could find a way to thwart their security protocols without being detected.
Amazon
Again, it is a myth that mail-in-voting is somehow untraceable to specific voters.... a myth that works for you solely if your goal is to reduce turnout! But in a Democracy, that should never be our goal! The goal of virtually every Supervisor of Elections in the US is (or should be) to allow EVERY ELIGIBLE VOTER to cast their vote, and to make it as easy and convenient as possible to do so without sacrificing the integrity of the process.MANY OF THESE PEOPLE DEVOTE THEIR LIVES TO THIS! These are not "weekend warriors" called in to plan and supervise elections a few weeks out of the year! These are professionals who plan and prepare ALL YEAR, EVERY YEAR for elections!
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I'll have to look for an article on it.
Well, like with the NY thing, how do we know unless we investigate it and be open about it.
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@raphjd
HEY! A post I can completely and totally agree with!!!
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I wonder if you were so forgiving when Trump won and liberals were screeching "Russian collusion".
Clearly, you support the swamp with your constantly making excuses for it.
"They are professionals" Do you mean like Brenda Snipes and co in Broward County? She was dirty as they come.
I also already gave you the one about the woman outside of Detroit who had been committing voter fraud for 20+ years that she worked for the county (Wayne County, I think) election department. I posted about it in this section already with a link to the story.
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So, out of over 3000 counties (or, by any other name), there have been TWO with corrupt officials.
If you ask me, that's a pretty damned good result!
NOT, mind you, that I approve of their actions. I think that supervisors of elections need to be monitored and supervised as well (that's where each State's Secretary of State - or, by any other name) comes in.
@raphjd, you seem to think I want to excuse, ignore, or otherwise wipe away these abuses... and that is completely false.
I just don't think they are an excuse to throw out an entire election... especially since the amount of fraud and abuse in the 2020 elections (at least what's been discovered so far) is historically low!!!
It is impossible to manage the vote in a country of 300 million citizens and expect there to be no errors, omissions, fraud, waste, abuse, or mismanagement. What you can do is hire professionals to manage the task, and work endlessly and tirelessly to improve the process each time. The 2020 results (where Republicans made gains in almost every measurable category, save for President) would seem to bear this out!
It's easy to look at a few bad apples and screech that you should torch the whole batch (hell, this election cycle, it seems they want to torch the whole orchard!!!), but the truth is there will always be a few bad apples in the bunch. We can (and do) work hard to identify them and root them out.
Still, we should not ignore them - for allowing a single bad actor to get away with abuse of our electoral system would invite others! It is only by our constant vigilance that we will be able to successfully preserve, protect, and defend our democracy.
That doesn't mean turning a blind-eye to misdeeds when they occur, but neither does it mean throwing out nearly 7-million votes in Pennsylvania because a few dozen (even a few hundred!) might be suspect.
We did the best we've ever done in 2020. Now, we have to look for ways to make it better. And, yes, that means looking at the way Pennsylvania made allowances for COVID-19 - but that also means letting Pennsylvania sort that out!
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@raphjd said in New York undercounted C-19 deaths:
I'll have to look for an article on it.
Well, like with the NY thing, how do we know unless we investigate it and be open about it.
I can't wait.
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It'll take a while since there are so many C-19 articles
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