Is 'Undetectable' the New Safe Sex
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In some cases, as much as the law states that disclosure is required, I cannot really pass judgement on someone for not disclosing. Anonymous public hookups like cruising in the park, not asking questions, or in some cases, not even being able to identify the other person are such situations where I have a different view than the law around disclosure. Given the whole thing with the undetectable viral load, it would stand to reason that the law is a little out-dated.
Say you go to a bathhouse, and you see someone blindfolded in a sling in a dark corner, it's pretty obvious what they want, and that they do not care. In such a case, if you as the undetectable top decide to dive in raw, disclosure in my opinion shouldn't be necessary under those pretenses. The same holds true for the bottom. If they're in a sling and don't care, it is equally the responsibility of the other person to protect themselves if they're concerned with it, especially if the person in the sling is undetectable. Sadly though, the law is quite clear that disclosure still must occur.
All this being said though, it will be interesting to see how long it takes for the legal system to catch up with the facts that while there is no evidence that proves that it is impossible to transmit HIV with an undetectable viral load, but there sure is an overwhelming amount of evidence that statistically seems to indicate that an undetectable viral load is actually safer than sex with a condom. Condoms have been known to break, slide off, or otherwise occasionally fail in some way. If used properly and they do not slide off or break however, they are a proven method of preventing HIV as well. If you ask me, ZERO cases of infection from an undetectable viral load over the 10 - 14 years that the different studies were conducted sounds like a whole lot safer odds than a reasonable bet that infection is not possible, knowing that there is always a chance that the condom could break.
This is the kind of information that more people should know. There's a whole lot worse things than HIV that are possible that you can get a LOT easier than HIV itself at this day and age. I provide information like this as a reference for people to be able to make their own choices for themselves, knowing that they can make their decision proplerly informed with all the facts. Just because something is possible, doesn't necessarily mean that it's likely.
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I am willing to disclose in an anonymous situation but when one comes at me in unprotected manner be it top or bottom without discussion I then assume they are making their own judgement call.
What really gets me is the guys advertising online for bareback sex negative only. Twice i have taken the time to explain (because I was hoping for a little sneaky pete) that if they really are negative and wish to remain that way they would be better to seek out the guys that identify as undetectable as opposed to negative.
I also know there is a large segment of guys who willfully attempt to spread the virus. Pretty much anytime the ad says negative looking for bareback I assume this is what is happening.
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I am willing to disclose in an anonymous situation but when one comes at me in unprotected manner be it top or bottom without discussion I then assume they are making their own judgement call.
I couldn't agree with you more. The fact of the matter is that even the dumbest of people know that there is a "realistic possibility" (in the words of the law) that the person with an unstated status could be HIV+. It is also true that even the dumbest people know that there is a "realistic possibility" that a person who has identified themselves as being HIV- could actually be HIV+ and either not know it, or are lying about it. If you're really all that worried, you wouldn't just engage in random sexual encounters without at least inquiring about your partner's status.
What really gets me is the guys advertising online for bareback sex negative only. Twice i have taken the time to explain (because I was hoping for a little sneaky pete) that if they really are negative and wish to remain that way they would be better to seek out the guys that identify as undetectable as opposed to negative.
I never quite thought of it that way until you pointed it out actually.
You do raise a good point from a medical perspective. Most people who have HIV and don't know it are generally not far from the seroconversion stage. When this happens, the viral load is often rather high, thus elevating the risk. By the same logic, you at least know that if they identify as being undetectable, you at least have the peace of mind of knowing that that you do not have to worry about how the possibility of finding out later that your partner was wrong about their status for some reason.I also know there is a large segment of guys who willfully attempt to spread the virus. Pretty much anytime the ad says negative looking for bareback I assume this is what is happening.
That is a safe assumption in terms of risk factor. I do know that there are some people out there who will still be honest about it at least. As much as I do not understand such people, there are some HIV+ people who seek out HIV- partners for bareback sex with the goal of infecting them because somehow that gives them sexual gratification, when both partners know what they're getting themselves into and still want to excercise their free will to go ahead with it anyway, who am I to judge? hehe
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honestly, I cringe when i see sex ads on apps from guys you know the profiles that when you read between the lines is like…
hey im a slapper with an arse that is open to more traffic than a 7/11 store , but ya know i only bareback with neg guys so its cool
cringe worthy , I could say "oh well its their own lives", but unlike the US , people in Australia subsidise 90% of HIV medication
I lived for 11 years with an HIV positive partner who contracted HIV via molestation he always hated the fact that he was HIV+
he always said he wished that he could have dodged this bullet and would nevereven entertain the notion of risky sex knowing what he knows now
he would tell me some stories of when he would speak to gay youth for NAPWA , that used to make me roll my eyes in horror.
I just don't understand the blasé attitude of people who bareback , why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare ???I'm not going to apologise for being hard line about this ,and Ive been to many a funeral of older gay men that i have looked up to as role models, however they contracted the illness in the 80's before education about prevention , im not sure about education in other peoples neck of the woods but in Australia a lot of money is invested in HIV education in schools in public places , on bill boards and its not teaching abstinence either as ive read they d o in America, its teaching people gay straight or otherwise to not be ignorant and teaching different methods of safe and safer sexual practices
Ive over heard young gays guys in the club that i work in talking about it so casually, as if the meds are no big deal if you do become HIV + its really perturbs me.
i cant even count the number of times ive had to watch my ex doubled in pain from cramps , diarrhoea nausea and that's just side effects of the meds , im not even gonna list the anguish you go through as a sero-discordant partner staying by your partners side in hospital for 24 or more hours wondering if this bout of the flu that they have been smacked around by is going to evolve into p.c.p or some other HIV opportunistic infection. -
honestly, I cringe when i see sex ads on apps from guys you know the profiles that when you read between the lines is like…
hey im a slapper with an arse that is open to more traffic than a 7/11 store , but ya know i only bareback with neg guys so its cool
cringe worthy , I could say "oh well its their own lives", but unlike the US , people in Australia subsidise 90% of HIV medication
I lived for 11 years with an HIV positive partner who contracted HIV via molestation he always hated the fact that he was HIV+
he always said he wished that he could have dodged this bullet and would nevereven entertain the notion of risky sex knowing what he knows now
he would tell me some stories of when he would speak to gay youth for NAPWA , that used to make me roll my eyes in horror.
I just don't understand the blasé attitude of people who bareback , why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare ???I'm not going to apologise for being hard line about this…
You shouldn't have to opologize for that. You are entitled to have and express your opinion and views.
That being said though, does knowing the factual observations and statistics of maintaining an undetectable viral load influence your view on unprotected sex in some situations?
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Just as I don't need to apologize for having and expressing (albeit in edited format) my opinion or views.
I cringe, no, honestly I fucking die a little more inside (poke me in there and see I am pretty much dead anyway) with the amount of judging and blaming that goes on in what allegedly should be my community. Don't worry Muriel you won't need to roll your eyes or clutch your pearls or recoil in horror. My irresponsibility with regards to how I contracted the plague is totally my responsibility and I don't try to shift the blame on to anyone else nor do I offer up how it happened for you to deem whether twas a worthy seroconversion. One of the ways I take ownership is by offering myself up to the Mengeles of the world allowing them to pump me up with their experimental therapies and giving my very life essence over to them on a regular basis in the hopes that others may benefit from what is clearly my lack of concern for my own health.Take comfort in the fact, like everyone else on this nasty piece of rock, I will die eventually.
Next up on the docket, judging apples, the cause of man's descent.
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I won't begin to deny that there is a lof of judging and shifting of the blame onto others that goes on around the subject, especially in cases where people are not sufficiently informed. That is a part of the reason why I disagree with making failure to disclose HIV status a criminal matter. My view on that is that sex requires 2 people, so the responsibility shouldn't just be one-sided.
When properly informed of things like an undetectable viral load, it definitely redefines what the word "safe" in "safe sex" actually means when it comes to HIV. I know all too well the kinds of things that happen to people, based solely on the fact that they're HIV+. I myself am a victim of such things on a very large scale. Education on the actual facts is the only way to change that sadly.
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Just as I don't need to apologize for having and expressing (albeit in edited format) my opinion or views.
I cringe, no, honestly I fucking die a little more inside (poke me in there and see I am pretty much dead anyway) with the amount of judging and blaming that goes on in what allegedly should be my community. Don't worry Muriel you won't need to roll your eyes or clutch your pearls or recoil in horror. My irresponsibility with regards to how I contracted the plague is totally my responsibility and I don't try to shift the blame on to anyone else nor do I offer up how it happened for you to deem whether twas a worthy seroconversion. One of the ways I take ownership is by offering myself up to the Mengeles of the world allowing them to pump me up with their experimental therapies and giving my very life essence over to them on a regular basis in the hopes that others may benefit from what is clearly my lack of concern for my own health.Take comfort in the fact, like everyone else on this nasty piece of rock, I will die eventually.
Next up on the docket, judging apples, the cause of man's descent.
If worrying about another human being is judgemental , then so be it , im judgemental
if trying to educate younger gay men that just because HIV may not be a death sentence , and that pills are available ,the who cares if you get it attitude is not fine
I dont take comfort in anyone dying , i have a lot of HIV+ people in my life and i care for them all , i would like however, for the lack of a better term , Gay youth , to wake the fuck up and realise that you still need to protect yourself , and yeah so what if i am horrified , a human being should care about another human being.and Mr Mazda to answer your question ..for me personally undetectable is not safer sex , i will always use protection.
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and Mr Mazda to answer your question ..for me personally undetectable is not safer sex , i will always use protection.
As you wish… I'm all for the freedom of choice, which includes a person's right to choose if they want to engage in a risk, and if so, the extent of the risk that they're willing to take. As long as you make that decision knowing all the actual facts, then it is an informed decision as it should be.
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If worrying about another human being is judgemental , then so be it , im judgemental
if trying to educate younger gay men that just because HIV may not be a death sentence , and that pills are available ,the who cares if you get it attitude is not fine
I dont take comfort in anyone dying , i have a lot of HIV+ people in my life and i care for them all , i would like however, for the lack of a better term , Gay youth , to wake the fuck up and realise that you still need to protect yourself , and yeah so what if i am horrified , a human being should care about another human being."why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare", are there no prisons? are there no work houses?
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"why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare", are there no prisons? are there no work houses?
Just to set the recotd straight, keeping someone in jail is MUCH more expensive to the system than jut providing their medical needs. Not only that, but I can tell you first hand that jail is definitely NOT a place you want to be when you're HIV+, especially since they are not exactly all that with it with medications in jail. I happen to be lucky enough to have survived 12 months of such an ordeal, without somehow developping a resistancy to the medication.
The other question that comes to my mind is do you mean to say that there should be no provisions to make accomedations to subsidize medical coverage for HIV meds, which easily run more than $3000/month? Most people don't even make that much in a month before taxes, yet alone being able to pay for rent, food, etc. on top of the cost of the medication.
You also seem to have the assumption that everyone who is infected with HIV got infected as the result of negligence. This is simply not the case. The whole point of this article was to establish that there is too much stigma surrounding the subject of HIV, since it's a proven fact that in the last 14 years or so, there has been not one case of HIV transmission (even through unprotected sex) when the person has been on HIV meds and maintained an undetectable viral load.
There's much more to consider than just negligence as well. As I have mentioned in other forum posts, my HIV infection was definitely NOT the result of my negligence. In fact, I actually declined sex with the man who infected me several times before it was physically forced upon me anyway, despite my refusal. While it may be true that a lot of HIV infections are the result of negligence, it is not a fair assumption to just assume that everyone who is infected with HIV is infected because of some kind of negligence on their part. At this day and age, we should be breaking down that kind of barrier, stigma, and incorrect way of thinking, rather than promoting it.
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If worrying about another human being is judgemental , then so be it , im judgemental
if trying to educate younger gay men that just because HIV may not be a death sentence , and that pills are available ,the who cares if you get it attitude is not fine
I dont take comfort in anyone dying , i have a lot of HIV+ people in my life and i care for them all , i would like however, for the lack of a better term , Gay youth , to wake the fuck up and realise that you still need to protect yourself , and yeah so what if i am horrified , a human being should care about another human being."why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare", are there no prisons? are there no work houses?
Sorry MrMazda I think MsCommunication has taken the stage. "why should your irresponsibility for your own health be a burden on Medicare" was a previous statement from antstorm that stuck in my craw and I was just following up the theme with a Scrooge quote. Sometimes when I get frustrated I have been known to speak and not think.
To be clear, I am + and do not go out promoting the disease. That being said, acting like it's a death sentence and certain individuals opinion's on the subject remind me of having Ronald Reagan in the White House once more.
Undetectable is the new safe sex, or at the very fucking least using a condom & having sex with someone who is undetectable is incredibly "clean" which is sort of what originally interested me in this topic. I think it's important, as previously mentioned, to get this message out there. Again, I am not promoting a bareback lifestyle (actively anyway) but what I do want to promote is ridding the world of the backward thinking. It's not the eighties or the nineties any longer, we are living in the future.
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