Sodom & Gomorrah - What the bible really says
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Net of the scandalous priests, I have no argument against the chaste nuns and priests. I believe it's possible to live that life. Good for them. I'm aware that "brothers and sisters" in the Bible may actually refer to cousins, in this case. Of course i have absolutely no idea whether Mary or Joseph had siblings.
Personally I have to believe that most of the priests and nuns are religiously upright, because they do fill a very important role.
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NQM - I wasn't asking to be silly when I asked about others thinking you're an infidel and wanting to chop off your head. That was a direct path to "how do we determine which religion or which morals are correct?" Whaddya think?
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We can't. nobody can. Might as well ask… how do we determine that WE are correct? In my book, "The Bible says so" just doesn't wash, because all religions would have a sacred text of their own.
I think that there is a certain group of people theorizing that wrong ethics/morality exists only when the person cannot see God/Humanity/himself in the other person's shoes. I think that's a pretty good gauge, if difficult to operationalize.
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"I suppose we could second guess God, but I don't know where that gets us."
This is my point exactly, and I'm glad that you agree.
Imagine if I tried to decide the specific "true meaning" of questions of historical fact like the date of the battle of Stalingrad, or the gravitational effect of the Moon on the tides, and did so without evidence that could be seen and confirmed by others — in other words to rely upon "faith". This would be ridiculous and time consuming, yes? No one would believe my answers unless I showed them my data. That is, until the conversation turned to the origin of books like the Bible. Then I could throw out any data and fill in my own.
Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail. While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this level of nobility extends only to faiths that still have many subscribers. Anyone who still worships the God Poseidon would be thought insane.
If religion addresses a genuine sphere of understanding and human necessity, then it should be susceptible to progress; its doctrines should become more useful, rather than less. Can you imagine the science of aircraft design or cancer and AIDS research not progressing, but going backwards, where things are no longer as useful as they once were? Progress in religion, as in other fields, would have to be a matter of present inquiry, not the mere reiteration of past doctrine. Whatever is true now should be discoverable now, and describable in terms that are not an outright affront to the rest of what we know about the world (like the economic benefits of slavery to a world living without employable people). By this measure, the entire project of religion seems perfectly backward. It cannot survive the changes that have come over us—culturally, technologically, and even ethically. Otherwise, there are few reasons to believe that we will survive it.
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#16 I typed a whole ramble on comparing Christianity with other religions and I think it would be misinterpreted. And I don't even know if I'm right 100% or have all the facts. As with everything, the exremists are the only ones who make the news - do they really represent the whole or majority of a given group? I don't know. Another example people don't vote for the most part in Islamic countries, Saudi Arabia is a monarchy right? I would find that a difficult place to live. But I certainly acquiesce that I was raised Christian and people obviously tend to find reasons to continue to live the way they were raised. Then again, if you watched that movie "not without my daughter" with Sally Field, it was interesting to see how the husband behaved in America and how he changed when he returned to Iran/Iraq, I forget. And certainly the children born in USA of immigrants originating from those countries seem to be Americanized or Britainized for the most part. It is a mystery still though when you read about a suicide bomber that was born in Britain, went to school there and was highly educated - his name escapes me now. Comparing him to a Timothy McVeigh who was not educated and maybe just crazy doesn't seem helpful or enlightening does it? Christian countries overall though seem to be much more tolerant of other religions in their midst - possibly to their detriment - we'll see as time goes on but the reverse doesn't seem true does it? To go back to the very beginning of your #16 though, you said " no we can't" and "the Bible says' doesn't wash" yeah probably, but I will also point out if your head is cut off, you can't say anything! So, if you want to dscuss this further, you can PM me and I'll give you my home email.
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Yeah, I agree with most of this. I'm just curious that… if your head is cut off, it is also probably due to the same theory that "The Quran says so" or some other holy Book says so, still doesn't wash. Unfortunately it might seem that personal insight isn't very well encouraged in those kind of... extremist groups.
So let's not just focus on our own religion here, because it would definitely be nice if all the religions were tolerant of others. But we know that is just not the case.
I'm okay to let this rest, actually. Just putting my thoughts down.
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NQM - I'm okay with letting it rest. But I think we've just scratched the surface on how much more tolerant Christian countries are - just wanted to say that too. So keep your head and discuss religion here not there!
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Just bumping this because I liked the logic table, as well as the Ezekiel reference. I had a lot more to say, but
realized, I'm tired now, and I need to chew on it some more before I write something that doesn't make cents.
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Opening a can of worms… awww yeah
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Opening a can of worms… awww yeah
Why can't it be a can of Ocean Spray cranberry jelly; why does it have to be worms?
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Opening a can of worms… awww yeah
Why can't it be a can of Ocean Spray cranberry jelly; why does it have to be worms?
It's a figure of speech
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because not all worms are created equal. some worms are more equal than others.
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Worms!!! Wooooorms!!!! :cheers: :cheers:
oooops
Here it is I have done my usual molish mess
I can only try to save myself asking how the true and the false are given ^-^
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:hmmm: Going back to Topic… and forgive me if anyone get's mad at the info I'm about to tell because it messe's with anyone's faith...
The 5 cities especially Sodom were located as we know by descriptions near a massive sismic flaw in a sea (dead sea?) aniway such flaw actually gushed and was rich in nafta or petra oleum (oil)... which has the bible tells made the cities very rich, and their sin was not greed but more the non giving, the jews or people of israel wanted hand on that market, and none of the cities allowed it... as with any sismic flaw plus oil there was a major destruction when there was a earthquake and basically the cities disappeared one momment to the other in a rain of fire has mentioned, even the statues of salt can be explained by the rain of salt rock of the sea... so the whole gay thing actually happened centuries later and got worst since then, nothing to do with the original text or history that can be geologically proven.
The bible must be read has an anthology of prephilosophy, and the characters are all non existant I'm sorry to say, only some of the eldest saints actually have been proven to exist, Jesus Christ is a title not an actual persons name and he was not mentioned by any historier at the time be it greek, roman or other... and well someone which did what he did would be, but why wasn't him... because he embodies monomyths and knowledge from diferent entities... Jesus don't says anything new actually, he mixes the Plato dialogues of love and the "republic" Aristotles, Apolonius actual works and fuses with Buhdist, Hindu and diverse european beliefs like the Etruscans... The bible copies the words very clearly from the original texts, sometimes it fuses more to follow a plot or political argument, however the whole question which I read above of Mary's virginity... the parthenogenesis of christ is supposed to be a quote of the birth of Venus... as Venus so does Christ is a god of love which walks above the waters and comes to reign over time and death... see Sandro Botticelli painting, it's allegorical not supposed to be taken as an historical fact, it was only after the protestant reformation that people starten to read the bible has a true historical fact and not has a guideline myth for the soul, why... because now any nutjob with cash could read a very misstranslated version of the already meddled latin version.
Actually the original peoples were very lax in sex... and the bible even mentions that child sexslaves of the gentile races could be taken.
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IMO, if the religion doesn't condone your sexual preferences, it is better to reject them.
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hey guys i think you'll find this site interesting
http://hoperemains.webs.com/sodomandgomorrah.htm -
#16 I typed a whole ramble on comparing Christianity with other religions and I think it would be misinterpreted. And I don't even know if I'm right 100% or have all the facts. As with everything, the exremists are the only ones who make the news - do they really represent the whole or majority of a given group? I don't know. Another example people don't vote for the most part in Islamic countries, Saudi Arabia is a monarchy right? I would find that a difficult place to live. But I certainly acquiesce that I was raised Christian and people obviously tend to find reasons to continue to live the way they were raised. Then again, if you watched that movie "not without my daughter" with Sally Field, it was interesting to see how the husband behaved in America and how he changed when he returned to Iran/Iraq, I forget. And certainly the children born in USA of immigrants originating from those countries seem to be Americanized or Britainized for the most part. It is a mystery still though when you read about a suicide bomber that was born in Britain, went to school there and was highly educated - his name escapes me now. Comparing him to a Timothy McVeigh who was not educated and maybe just crazy doesn't seem helpful or enlightening does it? Christian countries overall though seem to be much more tolerant of other religions in their midst - possibly to their detriment - we'll see as time goes on but the reverse doesn't seem true does it? To go back to the very beginning of your #16 though, you said " no we can't" and "the Bible says' doesn't wash" yeah probably, but I will also point out if your head is cut off, you can't say anything! So, if you want to dscuss this further, you can PM me and I'll give you my home email.
I really have to quote that… I'm sorry but if you refer to history it is false. "The Crusades" for exemple... Search who really was St Patrick and who were the snake he forced into the sea. (The who really is on purpose, here...)
There will always be what we call the majority (which force us to based our judgment on something) and the special cases (doesn't matter their numbers as long as they aren't the majority). Well if you look at the Christians' majority... well we obviously wouldn't be talking on this site if they had something to say about it.
Lately the actual Pope try to ease the war between Christians and Gays but let's face it : it didn't change a thing for 90% of the planet. Cause when you spend your entire life being told, by your Church and your family, that you should hate what is different that you teach it to your kids you just don't have the balls to say otherwise...
Trying to be the nice and good Christians between 2013 and 2015 will never be enough to redeem all the wrong they've done... (that's my idea, everyone can think differently)
And let's head back to homosexuality (I think it's the most interesting part :hapgay: ) they're a lot of religions (pre-christianism) that actually promoted same-gender sexe! Like a lot! We all know about the Romans that loved between men sexe
(The Theban Legion is a good exemple for those who know about it) but there were also the japonese deities that enjoyed it themselves and, according to the folklore, teached it to the humans :cheers:When you look at the before J.C and the after J.C we lost a lot... Too much, maybe if I dare say.
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You neglected to mention the reference in Jude. It does seem clear, (especially since knowing is the Biblical Hebrew euphemism for sex) that homosexual rape was intended in both Sodom and Gibeah. This is not only the traditional view for millenia (cf Jude 7). But the other referencez, especially the Ezekiel one, show that really homosexuality wasn't considered the main reason. Things like not helping the poor. A useful answer to frothing fundamentalists. Also useful is the notion of 'not casting the first stone', 'not judging lest ye be judged'. I think it was the Jesus killing Pharisees who also were known for being judgemental.
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Its true that Islamic countries seem to lead the pack in religious/moral hypocrisy, but obviously it doesn't end there.
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