Sodom & Gomorrah - What the bible really says

Spintendo

I think Ms. Mead was mislead not by the natives, but by her Episcopal upbringing lol. Its either that, or the natives didnt care for her lesbian girlfriend and decided to drive her from the village. In any event, it is true that Jesus said some profound things about love and charity and forgiveness. But others have offered that same instruction centuries before Jesus did (Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, etc), and many many writings discuss the importance of love much better than the Bible did (Shakespeare anyone?)

We both have good arguments that we bring to the table. The argument that my formula showed (and what i had hopefully believed was faithful to your intent) was that, in the end, it was a pretty decent argument… Don't forget that 7 of the 8 variables in the formula for "your/our" argument were actually valid!...only 1 was invalid... so I dont think that my "huge assumption" was too much off the mark. I think you and I would completely agree on the failings of capitalism and the need for more socialism in the world (of the UK and European kind)

The cincher for me is when I consider the questions that have been solved to everyone's satisfaction… take slavery for instance. Most of the world now agrees that slavery is wrong (I'm not including the Middle East). Now what moral instructions do we get from the Bible on that subject? Hmmmm.... the creator of the universe clearly expects us to keep slaves..... In fact the only real restraint God shows on the subject is to make sure that we do not beat our slaves so severely that we "injure their eyes or their teeth". (Exodus 21) And nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus object in any way whatsoever to the practice of slavery.

The thread originally asked whether we could reject the morality of the Bible, and judge that God was wrong in destroying Sodom & G. If we cannot judge him/her on that, then we can't be in positions to judge other hot-button topics, like whether Jesus is the Son of God.... or the Golden Rule is the height of moral wisdom..... or the Bible really is more useful than People magazine. There is no room for half-judgements, it is all or nothing.

In using our own moral intuitions to authenticate the wisdom of the Bible—and then occasionally saying—that since human beings cant or wont rely upon those intuitions to guide themselves, they should turn to Jesus every now and again and his sayings. This has us using our own moral intuitions to decide that the Bible, rather than ourselves, is the appropriate source and authority of moral intuitions.

Here is a map to illustrate my meaning:

1. Humans, in need of morals, turn to the Bible for the source of Moral Intuition.
2. Finding many objectionable things in this Bible, humans use their own moral intuitions to pick and choose what "feels" right, and what is "workable" for them (and adjustable to whatever time period theyre in).
3. What is chosen from, says that humans have no morals, and must seek out and learn from the only source of Moral Intuition— found in further readings of the Bible.
4. GO TO 1.

This is circular reasoning in all of its splendor.

Now which do you prefer… A conversation from the 21st Century in which we avail ourselves of all the scientific insights and philosophical arguments that have accumulated in the last two thousand years—or one from the 1st Century, as it is preserved in the Bible...... Which time period symbolizes progress the most of all?

notquiteme

I think that the biggest problem here is that the Roman Catholic Church is governed by a group of people (the college of cardinals, of which the Pope is the Cardinal of Rome) who deliberate or are enlightened in some way about what are to be doctrinal truths. However, regardless of what they say, nobody is infallible, and I believe those people to be as able to discriminate along with the worst of them.

Knowing this, morality is an externally imposed set or mores/norms that we are trained to do, while conscience speaks from the heart (or soul, if you wish). What irritates me now is that the Church has wielded so much power (especially in the 12-16th century) that they have been able to impose their set of mores on a very large percentage of the world. They did it so well that now we're trying to besiege a fortress that is entrenched in tradition. How do you fight against a group that will only shake their heads and say: "It's wrong"?

I go to church religiously, but i avoid self-righteous or fire-and-brimstone priests. I go there in the most basic way… and the most literal interpretation of the word: Communion. To commune.

fancydude

Notquiteme- I'll start with you first since your reply is shorter. No one said the person of the Pope is infallible, (or any person) only certain very rare statements made by the Pope. There have only been less than a dozen in over 2000 years and they are pretty reasonable statements, if you believe God has some mystery to Him and accept He founded the Roman Catholic Church to represent Him on earth. (which I do). I'm assuming by the way you speak you go to Catholic Church already? Now, people have a terrible capacity for self indulgence, rationalization and denial, so I would never say people should pick their own moral values. I can't say anymore than that without writing a book. I think if you consider other value systems, they would seem hard to take indeed. American Indian tribes are often thought to be far superior to European (Catholic) systems since they didn't have a concept of property rights and other things endemic to Capitalism, but their primitive way of life would have been wiped out by another system eventually if not the way it historically occurred. Not saying this is right, but would have happened. Now all this peace and mother earth stuff- how do you feel about leaving the old, sick and weak along the trail to die if the tribe was on the move? We can dissect every other culture and find many examples of similar things we find abbhorent based on how we were raised.

Spintendo:

The table was a lovely thought, and well intended, I don't think I disputed that. I still believe it is making huge assumptions, (even if 7 of the 8 variables are valid) the conclusions drawn are invalid. It is like saying a car if metal and a car moves people, cars make less pollution than they did 20 years ago. All valid, but hardly is it a complete comparison of modern life vs. 200 years ago.

I don't think because we are rejecting slavery we are rejecting the morality of the Bible. I don't view the Bible as a manual like so many fundamentalist Bible Christians do. We are to look at the message the Bible is sending. At the time of slavery, one couldn't just go to Walmart or K-mart or wherever and apply for a job, those places didn't exist. The status of women had to be what it was in ancient times since women were needed in the home - cooking and washing clothes was pretty much an all day affair. Not that men couldn't do these things, but it made sense since it was the woman who often needed lots of recovery time after childbirth which was done at home. So if you were supposed to treat slaves decently, one presumes being a slave was better than starving to death. or not? I can't remember the other story, but I remember hearing some fundy preacher complain about the ancients not reading the Bible or something (ignoring the fact most people couldn't read) and I remember some pundit saying " shall we be angry at God that the printing press wasn't invented sooner?'

You are half right and half wrong on paragraph 4 - the thread talked about "what the Bible really says about S & G." (meaning does it really say homosexuality is wrong?) Which I advocate it doesn't and historically this idea was NOT "Always" talked about. The thread definitely does not ask if we can judge if God made the right decision. I suppose we could second guess God, but I don't know where that gets us.

As to your last paragraph, I"ve already said (I think) that the Bible is full of insights and wisdom, human nature doesn't really change all that much. I'm willing to take the Bible in its entirety if it is interpreted correctly. And contrary to what some think, this does not mean "making" the Bible say what I want it to. It means that things like don't wear fabrics of two fibers etc. are antiquated products of their time and try to extract the timeless messages.

notquiteme

Hi,

Hmmmm while i agree with a lot of your points, but just to clarify:

In regard to doctrine of papal infallibility, this was defined as dogma during the first vatican council. So it pretty much claims that whatever the pope decides to be dogmatic principles have to be accepted universally by the catholic church.

I also agree that other cultures may have aspects that would be difficult to accept, BUT i'm still concerned about the idea regarding internal or external sources of morality. Basically when we talk now about cultural value systems, they are basically stuff that a large number of people subscribe to. Is this any more "correct", "moral", or "good" than something which you decided on your own? If I can't rely on my intuition/gut/conscience to make decisions, then who's to say that asking a million other people won't result in the correct answer, either?

Of course in the context of society there are established mores that should more or less (no pun intended) allow less social friction, which result in an established set of cultural values. But this doesn't mean that the entire society (locally, of course) can't be wrong about something. But you're right, of course there should be rules that people should agree to so that we can move about in a society with minimal hassle.

To be honest, I'm not aware enough about american indians (but i've read several novels about them, and the hataalii) so i can't really comment. I would say, however, that it would have been good if we (humanity) were to grow only in a sustainable manner that the earth can support. But that's already water under the bridge, I think.

sorry, i tend to ramble. maybe i'll edit this and fix it tomorrow when it's no longer 2am.

fancydude

Not quite me - You started off saying you can never believe any person is infallible and now you say "whatever the pope decides have to be accepted universally by the catholic church." And the answer is "yes, his infallible statements must be accepted" and no that doesn't mean anything and everything he says must be accepted. I can't really think of any infallible statements that contradict anything already in the Bible can you? I mean, I just love the fundies - they will quote a verse that says something about "Jesus' brothers and sisters." At that time, people referred to all their people as brothers and sisters. Just as the priest or pope now says "Brothers and Sisters I welcome you in the name of Christ to celebrate Mass today…" But they claim that is "proof" Mary was not ever-virgin. If you think about it, virginity was a huge deal in those days and women guarded it very carefully. If Mary really thought she had given birth to God himself, I don't suppose it would have been inconceivable that she remained chaste for the rest of her life. The majority of Nuns do it. Some fail, like all people. But I think most of them are faithful to their vows. They're crabby enough is proof enough for me! But to the main point - the Catholic Church would not publish a Bible for all to read that contradicts itself. Common sense.

On to the morals question - I guess I would have to say the external moral code of the Church and Christianity is superior to what we would think of ourselves. First, we don't grow up in a vacuum, so I don't know how one would ever come up with their own completely independent code anyway, and it seems (although I readily admit while I read a lot, I can't claim to know everything about every society that ever existed) that many non-Christian societies were very violent and concerned with self-preservation. Many ancient socieities for instance could care less about children and abortions etc. The man was the breadwinner and women knew they could easily starve without a husband or brother. So if the house was on fire, the children would be sacrificed if necessary to save the man. A woman could have other children, but she could not easily replace her husband/father/brother. This is not to say that ONLY Christianity spoke of concern for your neighbor but it is rather the most well known and successful philosophy to advocate that. For example, some say the miracle of the loaves and fishes is NOT magic multiplication of food but rather that Jesus had taught the people to share.

Maybe I can't completely satisfy you when you say "asking a million people" won't result in the 'correct' answer either but I think I"ve done the best I could. I think Christianity if not unique, is rare in that it lifts up the status of women and the individual in a way not done by most of the world's great religions. So if that is what you value, then Christianity is for you!

notquiteme

Okay. I'm just not too rigid about all of it, maybe. I know there are so many right-wingers out there, so maybe I shouldn't really think about the way they do things, because it really bothers me.

On the other hand i think Mary wasn't a virgin, technically because all it requires is a broken/torn hymen. And giving birth tears it. But i also think she was chaste/celibate, at least until she got married to Joseph. I just have this feeling that she may still have had children, but I'm not too strongly opinionated. I simply think there was no evidence to support it, either way. So i don't object to or raise the topic.

Let me say this: while most of the teachings are truly universal, I would say that when I say "decided on your own", you in fact use your judgement and not simply follow blindly. I can like the Catholic teachings (i do, most of them anyway) but I would also be able to subscribe to other religion's/philosophies' views. For example, i was particularly taken with the Hindu concept of Namasti/Namaste. In it's poetic form, it means "Within you and me is a place where the whole universe resides. If i am in that place in me, and you are in that place in you, there is only one of us." I'm spending my time trying to take this in, because it essentially captures the idea that all people are deserving of respect, no matter your past, religion, personality, quirks or failings, and that we all have the capacity to "include" everyone else. There really isn't a directly correlated concept in the Catholic faith, but this idea doesn't contradict anything in the Catholic faith, either.

We're able to filter and choose the best from all sources, and no matter what the form, as long as it is real love, then i think God would be pleased.

fancydude

OK, you're now mellow NQM and a gentle soul, i suppose. Now I"m going to rock your world…..All of what you say is true (even the Catholic church accepts truth wherever it is found a shocker I know but I read it....) but what do you do while you're in Nirvana, peace/love/brotherhood etc. another group/nation/cult thinks you're an infidel because you don't believe exactly as they do and wants to chop off your head?

(But I have to ask you, since I did all that typing and you seem to have ignored it or at least didn't respond - don't you think a majority of Nuns and Priests are faithful to their vows? If so, it is much more than likely Mary could have remained chaste for a lifetime and ....I hope you're joking when you say "all it takes is torn hymen to not be a virgin..." Yes, technically correct but you know that is not what the Church is talking about...) As for evidence of brothers and sisters, I feel sure the Bible would have mentioned it - after all there are many different versions of the same stories which add or subtract details which is what you would expect when four different people write something. I don't take that as "Bible errors" the way some do.

notquiteme

Net of the scandalous priests, I have no argument against the chaste nuns and priests. I believe it's possible to live that life. Good for them. I'm aware that "brothers and sisters" in the Bible may actually refer to cousins, in this case. Of course i have absolutely no idea whether Mary or Joseph had siblings.

Personally I have to believe that most of the priests and nuns are religiously upright, because they do fill a very important role.

fancydude

NQM - I wasn't asking to be silly when I asked about others thinking you're an infidel and wanting to chop off your head. That was a direct path to "how do we determine which religion or which morals are correct?" Whaddya think?

notquiteme

We can't. nobody can. Might as well ask… how do we determine that WE are correct? In my book, "The Bible says so" just doesn't wash, because all religions would have a sacred text of their own.

I think that there is a certain group of people theorizing that wrong ethics/morality exists only when the person cannot see God/Humanity/himself in the other person's shoes. I think that's a pretty good gauge, if difficult to operationalize.

Spintendo

@fancydude:

"I suppose we could second guess God, but I don't know where that gets us."

This is my point exactly, and I'm glad that you agree.

Imagine if I tried to decide the specific "true meaning" of questions of historical fact like the date of the battle of Stalingrad, or the gravitational effect of the Moon on the tides, and did so without evidence that could be seen and confirmed by others — in other words to rely upon "faith". This would be ridiculous and time consuming, yes? No one would believe my answers unless I showed them my data. That is, until the conversation turned to the origin of books like the Bible. Then I could throw out any data and fill in my own.

Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail. While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this level of nobility extends only to faiths that still have many subscribers. Anyone who still worships the God Poseidon would be thought insane.

If religion addresses a genuine sphere of understanding and human necessity, then it should be susceptible to progress; its doctrines should become more useful, rather than less. Can you imagine the science of aircraft design or cancer and AIDS research not progressing, but going backwards, where things are no longer as useful as they once were? Progress in religion, as in other fields, would have to be a matter of present inquiry, not the mere reiteration of past doctrine. Whatever is true now should be discoverable now, and describable in terms that are not an outright affront to the rest of what we know about the world (like the economic benefits of slavery to a world living without employable people). By this measure, the entire project of religion seems perfectly backward. It cannot survive the changes that have come over us—culturally, technologically, and even ethically. Otherwise, there are few reasons to believe that we will survive it.

fancydude

#16 I typed a whole ramble on comparing Christianity with other religions and I think it would be misinterpreted. And I don't even know if I'm right 100% or have all the facts. As with everything, the exremists are the only ones who make the news - do they really represent the whole or majority of a given group? I don't know. Another example people don't vote for the most part in Islamic countries, Saudi Arabia is a monarchy right? I would find that a difficult place to live. But I certainly acquiesce that I was raised Christian and people obviously tend to find reasons to continue to live the way they were raised. Then again, if you watched that movie "not without my daughter" with Sally Field, it was interesting to see how the husband behaved in America and how he changed when he returned to Iran/Iraq, I forget. And certainly the children born in USA of immigrants originating from those countries seem to be Americanized or Britainized for the most part. It is a mystery still though when you read about a suicide bomber that was born in Britain, went to school there and was highly educated - his name escapes me now. Comparing him to a Timothy McVeigh who was not educated and maybe just crazy doesn't seem helpful or enlightening does it? Christian countries overall though seem to be much more tolerant of other religions in their midst - possibly to their detriment - we'll see as time goes on but the reverse doesn't seem true does it? To go back to the very beginning of your #16 though, you said " no we can't" and "the Bible says' doesn't wash" yeah probably, but I will also point out if your head is cut off, you can't say anything! So, if you want to dscuss this further, you can PM me and I'll give you my home email.

notquiteme

Yeah, I agree with most of this. I'm just curious that… if your head is cut off, it is also probably due to the same theory that "The Quran says so" or some other holy Book says so, still doesn't wash. Unfortunately it might seem that personal insight isn't very well encouraged in those kind of... extremist groups.

So let's not just focus on our own religion here, because it would definitely be nice if all the religions were tolerant of others. But we know that is just not the case.

I'm okay to let this rest, actually. Just putting my thoughts down.

fancydude

NQM - I'm okay with letting it rest. But I think we've just scratched the surface on how much more tolerant Christian countries are - just wanted to say that too. So keep your head and discuss religion here not there!

knoghoti

Just bumping this because I liked the logic table, as well as the Ezekiel reference. I had a lot more to say, but
realized, I'm tired now, and I need to chew on it some more before I write something that doesn't make cents.

MrMazda

Opening a can of worms… awww yeah

knoghoti

@MrMazda:

Opening a can of worms… awww yeah

Why can't it be a can of Ocean Spray cranberry jelly; why does it have to be worms?

MrMazda

@knoghoti:

@MrMazda:

Opening a can of worms… awww yeah

Why can't it be a can of Ocean Spray cranberry jelly; why does it have to be worms?

It's a figure of speech

notquiteme

because not all worms are created equal. some worms are more equal than others.

knoghoti

@MrMazda:

@knoghoti:

@MrMazda:

Opening a can of worms… awww yeah

Why can't it be a can of Ocean Spray cranberry jelly; why does it have to be worms?

It's a figure of speech

I, of course, was being silly.