Jump-on / re-seed during new uploads
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guys … if you want to understand a problem, you need to look at it from various angles.
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You don't seem to understand the torrent site ethos of "sharing with friends"..
It's not about my ego or yours.. it's about FRIENDS sharing as best they can... :hug:
...sure, but: this is a strict high-ratio demanding site, hence we need some order in these things. if the only goal would be sharing, be it, but users with slow uplinks suffer here, and it's something we don't want.
basically jumping-on wouldn't need be a problem if users would set their clients properly. but who cares? i saw a few jump-on'ers not only with 1.1 ratio, but even 10x more. this is inacceptable regardless their reasons. low ratio problem is my problem, i have no right to burden someone else with it.
when users see that their uplink bandwidth is exhausted and cannot afford or establish a better one, and have no new stuff to upload, the only way is donation or deletion of the account. another problem: connectability. users should demand 1:1 NAT from their ISPs. once established, also home gateway setting + firewall is needed, so that incoming ports are open. otherwise such users get lost in the ratio 'war' …
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@Uwe:
No both amice and me are saying that seeding is possible when the seeder is not connectible.
You should be aware that 420 SBP are very exceptional, go through the list and you'll see that usually it is less and sometimes even zero.
If every downloader would just gift a single Seed Bonus Points, at the end it would sum up to important amounts, just a thought …
There is another thing on which I may have got you wrong. The snatched list shows all members who have completed the download (there seems to have been a "cleaning" of history though). Independently if seeding or not.
The green and red dotsin the PM button indicate if the member is logged in, means if a PM is likely to be read immediately or not. It has nothing to do with the leeching / seeding activity.Hi Uwe,
Yes, I think I understood that you both said. That it is possible to download from an unconnectible seeder.
The point I was trying to make by contrasting your statements was that not being connectible is an obstacle.
You said 'Not connectible just means other torrent clients requests for parts (or offers) don't reach that member's torrent client programme, which slows down the upload/download'
I've read it put another way; 'if you are not connectable you lose the ability to download and upload to other unconnectible peers'
I was arguing that point because I hold the view that the sooner a downloader gets his torrent the better.
That view is built on the basic belief, one that is built into this site, that sharing is a top priority.However, looking at it from the perspective of an uploader who wants to improve their ratio, it may appear that being unconnectible is a good thing. If they are uploading because there is no demand for any torrents they have downloaded, the longer they spend seeding new upload the more seed points they will earn.
(I'm making the assumption that only seeding earns seed points. No points are given simply for having a torrent available to seed)And from that perspective, centred on the individual, jump-on seeders are an enemy.
Uwe, I would never doctor or trim any histories to make a better argument.
If any of an part of the image is missing it's because of the limits of printscreen. That, and I'm using a newly built Windows 7 system that then had only the basic MS Paint to record images.If the facts don't fit my thinking then I change my mind, not the facts. I too dammed rational to do anything else.
But thanks for pointing that out. It's given the idea that it might be better to save the webpage.
And thanks for clarifying the Green and Red dots. I've still much to learn about how the site operates.Anyway enough of the heady stuff I'm off to watch some good porn before bed
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It seems I've read you statement too quickliy:@contra966:
… I've read it put another way; 'if you are not connectable you lose the ability to download and upload to other unconnectible peers' ...
is completely correct. The up- and download between two not connectible peers can happen only indirectly via third connectible peers. If there is not such third, though both seed, respectively upload, no data will be transferred between them.
… However, looking at it from the perspective of an uploader who wants to improve their ratio, it may appear that being unconnectible is a good thing. If they are uploading because there is no demand for any torrents they have downloaded, the longer they spend seeding new upload the more seed points they will earn.
(I'm making the assumption that only seeding earns seed points. No points are given simply for having a torrent available to seed) ...The assumption is wrong, so the idea developed on it. It is enough to have a single torrent in seeding status in it's torrent client and it sending this status to our tracker, to earn the 0.5 seed bonus points per hour. They are not multiplied by the number of seed torrents. However having more torrents ready to upload data, increases the chance that someone downloads. Nothing is better for share ratio than uploading data, even at the best exchange rate SBP are worth a lousy 1.43 KB/s only,.
Then the way the torrent protocol works, it is better for ratio to have high upload rates (besides the comfort for the downloader), the slower the upload, the closer the upload ratio will be to 1.0 when the first leech will have completed their downloads and they will complete all together at almost the same moment, if the initial seed is slow. Our rule to limit the number of active torrents while initially uploading a new torrent (and only while that period) is going into that direction.
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There's a very easy answer that doesn't need all the technical stuff of modifying the bytes in the files or cutting off a few seconds here or there, or adding a few extra frames, or any other hard things.
When you collect your pictures and movies and all the other stuff you need for your torrent, put 'em all in a folder, and (to make things easy), call it the same thing as what you are going to call the torrent. Then make a torrent with the whole batch, including the preview pictures, and upload it. If you include the pictures, the torrent will be a different size than the original, especially if the pics go before the main movie, then each block of the resulting torrent will be different, and there will be no jump-on problems!
The only way the jump-on can happen is if the new torrent is IDENTICAL to the one the other person has. Adding a single pic, or a text file, something like 'Thank <user>at GT.RU for this download!" can make it different enough that a jump-on can't happen.
While you are doing this, you also help a problem some torrent clients have, with identically-named files. If you are working with more than one DVD, for example, and they have the same file names (like VIDEO.TS), if you are transferring more than one, they will "fight" over the file, unless they are in different folders, and you will end up wasting ratio on both downloads, corrupting others, getting banned, and NEVER getting done.
Trukr, Uwe, MrMazda : thanks for your input
…I'm not sure but i suspect this might work to prevent "jump-in".
making minor alterations to the file you have should cause the file to acquire a different characteristic and whoever trying to perform the jump may find that their existing file lost.
theoretical and might generate some bad blood. I'd prefer if there's no need for such a measure but ... personal preference prevails.eg.
-editing the file to change the size. (adding/cutting a 5 second intro or credit)
-change the encoding.
-[contributor input]Beercan, this is exactly what I was experimenting !
1) 1st try : alter the last byte of an .avi file (with an hexadecimal editor able to re-write part of files…or even sectors on your hard drive, that's a dangerous program !)
As far as a long-term solution, perhaps ratio should be capped at 5 or something like that, to get around those who have extreme speeds and want to seed forever.
I've also seen cases where there were only two completed copies, and there are now no seeders – heck, I have three of them attached to my profile right now, and the other two I'm waiting on have only 1 seeder each. I really wish someone would jump on some of those sometime this month.
Here's a great example: 22 thanks, 5 completed!
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=30261Here's another: 5 thanks, 2 completed!
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=64311I've seen others where the original seeder vanished before even finishing the first copy, and I can't tell you how much ratio I've wasted on those, mainly because the stats don't show it! It's too bad there isn't a "I Give UP!" button that I could click on, to get the ratio back for things that will never complete!</user>
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If you include the pictures, the torrent will be a different size than the original, especially if the pics go before the main movie, then each block of the resulting torrent will be different, and there will be no jump-on problems!The only way the jump-on can happen is if the new torrent is IDENTICAL to the one the other person has. Adding a single pic, or a text file, something like 'Thank <user>at GT.RU for this download!" can make it different enough that a jump-on can't happen...</user>
either you have the full torrent content or partial, you still can act as an "on-jumper", hence including additional stuff doesn't protect from jumping-on at all.
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but: this is a strict high-ratio demanding site, hence we need some order in these things.
The main problem is that the vast majority of members don't, or can't, visit the Forum _.. & even those who DO read the Forum can missunderstand _..
So why not simply add a jpeg, similar to the one attached, to a torrent post..
EDIT: I find blackdid's habit of editing his previous posts after receiving a reply to them as an indication of his true character..
eg:
@blackdid:Yes I want ALL the credit for myself.
I don't like to spend a long time preparing the description AND the numerous pics, chosen them carefully one by one, uploading the torrent and see anyone jump on my torrent until 3-4 have snatched it, as it's the implied rule here.I accept you have no sympathy for anyone who deletes a torrent for such a selfish reason.
So I have no sympathy for anyone who jumps on a torrent when he didn't prepared anything, especially on a ratio-based site, where some users have slow upload speed.If you want to see the kind of difficult description I'm talking about, have a look here :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=87336&filelist=1#filelistGladly noone could jump-on this kind of torrent, because of the 14 zip files…
has NOW changed / expanded to:
Yes I want ALL the credit for myself.
I don't like to spend a long time preparing the description AND the numerous pics, chosen them carefully one by one, uploading the torrent and see anyone jump on my torrent until 3-4 have snatched it, as it's the implied rule here.I accept the fact that you have no sympathy for anyone who deletes a torrent for "such a selfish reason" (though I was 100% sure the same movie would be uploaded by someone else a few hours after I deleted it, and this is exactly what happened. I don't care if I lost my time preparing it for nothing, but I hope the jump-on seeder will remind this lesson. And if the same situation happens again, I'll do exactly the same)
So yes, I have no sympathy for anyone who jumps on a torrent when he didn't prepared anything, especially on a ratio-based site, where some users have a slow upload speed.
And I'm not, as you say, "on a witch hunt.. wanting members banned for trying to increase their ratios" : I want members to upload their own NEW fresh torrents and get all credits for their preparation, if they want to boost their ratio. I don't want to see joeblow123, who has a ratio problem, have anyone else seeding with him until 3-4 members have snatched his fresh torrent. And if the jump-on guy has a fast upload speed, that's 10 time worse for the original uploader, is it so hard to understand ?
If you want to see the kind of difficult description I'm talking about, have a look here :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=87336&filelist=1#filelistGladly noone could jump-on this kind of torrent, because of the 14 self-prepared zip files…
Btw, I'm having a look at your profile : where can I see the torrents you carefully prepared and uploaded in this site ?
AS for the "Btw".. I used to post torrents here as WBfluff untill I got sued by EL & had to cancel that membership & obtain a new one as WB2 [thanks to an admin]..
The movies that I rent or buy & then rip or convert are now only posted on another site with the request that others will post them here.. If they are posted directly here then I ask for only a simple THANKS added to my posts "there".. If they arrive here via the .errio site then I don't expect a THANKS..
YOU don't have the good manners to thank your source because you DO want ALL the KUDOS.. so any sympathy I had for you has just evaporated..
EDIT: example from todays torrents: http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=98099 posted yesterday on the .org site with no THANKS added by a member of both sites that wants SEED BONUS GIFTS as an expression of thanks here..
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Thank you blackdid, I contacted both the jump-on seeder and the staff here, and saved screen shots, before I posted in this forum.
One result was a wonderful donation of seed from some very generous members. Thank you all so much!!!!
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Thank you blackdid, I contacted both the jump-on seeder and the staff here, and saved screen shots, before I posted in this forum.
Great, I'm very happy for you, joeblow123
Now back to wombat2 … because he doesn't want to stop his attacks, even after I thanked him in my last post.
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"I want ALL the credit" followed your wonderful question, which was, let's remember it : "You want ALL the credit for yourself??"
I replied in the same tone as your question, but you even can't see (or don't want to see) this kind of things. -
I edited my post yesterday at exactly 10h52 : « Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:52:08 pm by blackdid »
And I did that because I still had things to say, then I saw your answer (posted a few min ago after my edit) and thanked you for this answer, thinking this would stop your personal attacks.
But no, you keep on writing bad things even after my last post was :
"Thank you" :hug:Amice explained you why you were wrong, concerning this jump-on thing, Mgr, Uwe etc.. don't like at all people who jump on fresh torrents until they're not snatched by 3-4 other members.
Now, when you write this : "Well actually there was another seeder for 2 seconds.. ME.. I saw your post & was only checking…"
Why the hell do you want to check by jumping on my torrent ???
You see my movie's size in the description page, right ?
You see the extension of my movie in the description page.
You see the size of your own movie.If, with all these infos, you jump-on my torrent to "check" I don't know what, then something is really going wrong from your side.
Well, I wanted to stop this personal attack but you are the one who started them in your first post and you are the one that doesn't want to stop them even after I thanked you in my last post, so yes, I consider you are a very negative person who enjoys creating endless trouble.
Let's see how this will go, until the Mods close this thread.
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I think jumping on a torrent is immature as waiting for someone to make a nice meal and then stealing it from them.
If you are a victim of jumping on the do the following:
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PM the user and politely ask them to stop seeding your torrent until 3 or 4 other users have snatched it.
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PM and online mod and make us aware of the situation. We will usually PM the user and note in there profile that they are jumping on torrents.
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Save screenshots of your torrent as proof.(Don't wait to long or other "real" leechers may snag you torrent)
From there the staff will deal with it. This is a pet peeve of mine so please let us know if we can help.
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EDIT: Modified as per the following msg from amice..
@blackdid:I will try to explain one more time..
1.. I initially missunderstood what you meant by "CREDIT"
2.. I offered you a :hug: @ 10:43:07.. you then edited you post & added the "Btw" @ 10:52:08 & then accepted my :hug: @ 10:54:24.. YESTERDAY
By you editing without showing an EDIT: it could appear that I accepted your edited post, with it's offensive "Btw", & was THEN giving you a :hug:It was only TODAY while adding a constructive suggestion, in a reply to amice, that I noticed your "secret" edits.. & was annoyed by your "Btw" as posting torrents here cost me a £1250 fine [including costs].. & IMO I contribute, in an indirect manner, to ALL the torrent sites, by only posting torrents for movies "that have not appeared on the other sites as yet" on the .org site for others to post elsewhere [hopefully having added a simple THANKS, there, if they are going to get the kudos on those sites]..
Checking YOUR torrent:
To explain.. When you buy a movie & rip or convert it using a program like TMPEnc the resulting avi etc is unique.. If I convert, using the same program, a 2nd time there will be a slight change in the result.. By downloading your torrent & doing a hash check I could see that it WAS my conversion [100% not %99.9] & I left before connecting to you or any Ls..It is NOT my intention to make a "personal attack".. but only to point out your confrontational manner & inconsistencies eg:
And I'm not, as you say, "on a witch hunt.. wanting members banned for trying to increase their ratios"
&
@blackdid:I just sent a PM to both of them, but really this "jump on" situation is not acceptable, a rule could be :
- Staff warns the user who jumps on (with a pic proof in Staff's hands) and in case same user is caught a 2nd time…
- Ban him.
That, IMO, is not being constructive..
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one plea to you: when you only quote the previous message, without need to pick up concrete statements, erase all text except the quote header between:
[ quote ] & [ /quote ]
the quote link is still clickable; those who want to read what you are refering to, can get there via this link. like this:
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I think jumping on a torrent is immature as waiting for someone to make a nice meal and then stealing it from them.
If you are a victim of jumping on the do the following:
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PM the user and politely ask them to stop seeding your torrent until 3 or 4 other users have snatched it.
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PM and online mod and make us aware of the situation. We will usually PM the user and note in there profile that they are jumping on torrents.
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Save screenshots of your torrent as proof.(Don't wait to long or other "real" leechers may snag you torrent)
From there the staff will deal with it. This is a pet peeve of mine so please let us know if we can help.
Hi Brandon, I like what you wrote and totally agree with it.
Would it be possible to include it in GT's rules ?
Dear wombat2
I really think we should stop this now or it will never end.
But you force me to reply, as I notice that you read only what you want to read, why you ask ?You're wrong when you write : "I offered you a :hug: @ 10:43:07.. you then edited you post & added the "Btw" @ 10:52:08 & then accepted my :hug: @ 10:54:24.."
Because I didn't add only a "Btw" sentence, I added 2 LONG chapters starting with "And I'm not, as you say, "on a witch hunt.. " plus another one starting with "(though I was 100% sure the same movie…", just re-read better my 2 quoted paragraphs you pasted in your message !
It took me several minutes to add/edit these paragraphs and you had already answered at 10h43 when I was still editing my message : you got to understand that if I start to edit my message at, let's say, 10h42, then your answer is not in the Forum, as demonstrated right now, here :
http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=14325.msg62594#msg62594(you see i posted a test message at 6:00pm and immediately edited it, waiting patiently more than 10 min, just to make sure that the "Edit time" is the time when you END the edit and not when you START the edit)
So yes, while I was modifying my message, you posted your reply (that I couldn't see) and at 10h52, when I ended my editing, I read your answer and immediately hugged you at 10h54
Concerning the "ban" thing : I never wrote that a user should be banned the FIRST time he's been caught jumping-on a fresh torrent.
Read again what you quoted : "Staff warns the user who jumps on (with a pic proof in Staff's hands) and in case same user is caught a 2nd time…"
Where do you read I want someone banned when he's caught jumpin-on for the 1st time ?Also, why don't you quote what I answered Amice yestersday : "it should be possible to block (momentarily) his access to GT tracker ?"
Do you see this "momentarily" word that makes all the difference ?
I'm not for banning anyone without warnings (ok, maybe 2 warnings should be better than one), but if there was an explicit rule concerning this jump-on issue, and same members who have been warned once or twice keep on jumping-on, what would you like to do ? To let them endlessly jump-on fresh torrents, no matter how many warnings they got ?
Sorry I don't agree with that point of view.
Concerning the "Thanks" given by leechers to the original poster : I would like to tell you that, believe it or not, I got several great uploaders who thank ME (not on porn sites) because I thank them not only by a cold "thanks" but with long public passionate answers (concerning for example a Stevie Wonder concert or any kind of concert or movie or album that I really enjoyed), explaining them what moved me in this special event and sharing my passion with all. They tell me it's because of detailed answers like that they enjoy uploading stuff, because robotic "thanks" are really too cold, at least for me.
And If I was "selfish" as you said, I won't give away all my Seed bonus points to members or Mods (the ones who gift users) . I've been kindly gifted SBP by great members, so it's normal to give all my SBP (present and future) to these persons.
Well, this being said, why not trying to forget all this and keep this place cool ?
I've heard that you're a great poster with genuine torrents and I respect that.What drives me nuts is that there are no strict rules to prevent this jump-on issue.
I'm very happy (more than you'll ever think) that joeblow123 could upload his torrent and fix a bit his ratio issue because I like it when people are happy, it's a warm feeling when you feel that people are happy, don't you feel same ?What made me really sad is joeblow123's 1st message (and its crying icon) and to know that a guy like him, having a ratio issue, couldn't upload his torrent by himself because some "helping hands" jumped on his torrent in its initial phase.
That's why I would like Brandon's great sentences (quoted at the beginning of this message) become a rule in this site, then only "jump-on" members will understand, after being PM, that they're doing something wrong.
Peace :hug:
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I can see there is more serious reading to do here.
So I'm slightly embarrassed to post this. But.To add to the richness of the debate.
What is worse than a jump-on seeder?
Answer: A duplicate seeder.I posted a torrent two days ago. It was popuplar. Then interest died. C'est la vie.
I posted its follow up today.
Doing the obligatory search I found the first had been duplicated.Of course mistakes happen, and I'm lucky that I'm not in desperate need of the bandwidth and points that duplicate took.
( That's 122 seed points, taking their gifted total to over 18,300 - that isn't a typo - and 1.83 GB of upload bandwidth, if you're interested )Just food for thought and too tempting not to share with you. :hug:
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The main problem is that the vast majority of members don't, or can't, visit the Forum _..
…Well - if you had used our help desk (or our chat) to ask that question - my reply template is the same since 2008 (when I was promoted to admin) and used thousands of times in the meantime.
Sometimes I ask myself: how the f*** are users able to direct a simple support question (which btw can easily be answered when that users read the low-ratio warning they got) directly to an admin (in spite of the warning to don't do so) but are not able to ask why a menu item does not work for them???_
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@mgr:
Sometimes I ask myself: how the f*** are users able to direct a simple support question (which btw can easily be answered when that users read the low-ratio warning they got) directly to an admin (in spite of the warning to don't do so) but are not able to ask why a menu item does not work for them???
It's a lost case mgr - a question that can't be answered (if maintaining the polite side of human nature :))
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@mgr:
Sometimes I ask myself: how the f*** are users able to direct a simple support question (which btw can easily be answered when that users read the low-ratio warning they got) directly to an admin (in spite of the warning to don't do so) but are not able to ask why a menu item does not work for them???
It's a lost case mgr - a question that can't be answered (if maintaining the polite side of human nature :))
It is a rather interesting subject to how humanity is both doomed by its own stupidity and fundamentally insane. After all, we drum up ways of justifying the slaughter of the masses. Why do you think we invented politics and religion? :rotfl:
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Because we had nothing better else to do
[off-topic]Message sent via an an Android powered phone and I just realized I can't use the quote option. Anyone else having the same issue?[/off-topic]
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EDIT: Forgot the don't quote in full thingy
@geographer:The answer is really quite simple..
I, like the vast majority of members, am in the habit of clicking “Browse” from the “Home Page” to get straight to the pr0n &, normally, have no interest in reading the “Forum” [see below].. or read the “Toolbar” beyond “Browse”.... Which is why [IMO & to get back on topic] it would be more friendly / helpful / effective for blackdid to add a jpg similar to the attached [note typo] in his torrent post where even idiots, like myself, would have to see it.. Surely it's better to educate, in a place it will be seen, & thereby avoid the rule break, rather that punish after the event..
The average “user” will only try to get help when he can't get his daily fix of Pr0n..
or, as in my case, wants to ask a question once every 3 years.. & do it in the wrong way through ignorance or apathy..When the site first started & the membership was much smaller mods etc were more accepting of members mistakes & the forum was more relaxed & inviting.. Now that the membership is high the mods, understandably, can not spare the time to diplomatically explain for the 400th time an obvious solution to a problem.. The forum is a much more “shoot from the hip” / “say it as it is” / “take it or leave it” sort of place..
The fun & entertainment for both the mods & members has mostly gone on ALL Forum sites as members now “tweet” & “face book” amongst themselves.. Even the .org “shoutbox” is drying up..
Forums & shoutboxes , ircs etc are now mainly a place for just “preaching to the converted” or “brown nosing” to the mods & admins..PS.. @ mgr: I actually considered PMing you on the .org site about my problem accessing the Forum here.. but decided it might not be a good idea to disturb your few minutes of “down time” over there with my problem here.. & I'm sooooo glad I didn't.. & THANKS to the mod & the ex-mod who both PMed me “there” with the advise:
“This problem sometimes occurs with MSIE. Close all Internet Explorer windows and open Internet Options in the control panel. Click the Delete Cookies button. You should now be able to login.”I couldn't work out how to do it in Firefox.. but I appreciate the attempts at helping.. & MEGA THANKS to rocco for his solution:
Click "Profile" on the blue bar at the top of the page
Scroll to the end of the page and change your password, then click "Submit Changes"
Log out and log back in (actually last time it happened I didn't even have to logout just submit change of password.
Now try to get to the forum using the option on the blue bar at the top of the page and it should work fine
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