Jump-on / re-seed during new uploads

[amice]

hello    what you pointed here out, is a know problem, alas, technically not so easy to fix. that's why we can't really apply some rules against this sort of events    unless we indeed can technically control this behavior. because most trackers in the internet world are open {non-private}, programmers didn't think of this problem and didn't implement such a function into trackers code {at least i can't remember any such a tracker}. because it's an enhanced function, it needs to be incorporated into the site code {what you can see here as your 'profiles'}. this change but requires complete reworks of the site code    i know that it would become beneficial for all users, as it would protect not only original uploaders, but all users with low ratio from over-seeding by members who don't really need it, but don't care…

[leatherbear]

I am so sorry you had this experience blackdid.

It is unfortunate that some members either thru ignorance or greed jump on seeding new posts.

In these situations I always remember that the members like you are what make this site so wonderful. Always a gentlemen and live by the "Do the next right thing" motto.

A lesson better learned sooner than later in life…..

[geographer]

I like the image leatherbear

[blackdid]

Thx Amice for your technical explanations.
Geographer…so you too like Leatherbear's images  
Leatherbear and his incredible images : it's amazing when you browse throughout Michael's posts, there are many images he finds here and there and shares with us. Most of them (if not all) are full of love (that's how i feel when i discover them....ok not the hyena pic that was so funny lol).

How do you want a guy like that to be bad somewhere ?
Impossible ! Thanks Michael for being here with us  :hug2:

Now back to my jump-on seeder : I'm going to PM him right now and ask him politely to come read this topic, maybe he'll openly react, maybe not, we'll see...
Ok, this is the PM I just sent him :

---

Hi dennysung,

Would you please have a look at this new topic in the Forum :
http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=12710

You should be concerned by the topic, as it explains clearly why jumping on torrents created by others is not good to the original uploader (as you did this morning when you quickly jumped on my HotOlderMale torrent)

Thanks
blackdid

[cumeaternc]

I checked the topic log for this thread and dennysung has not read it yet(it may be his sleepy time).  I sent him a PM asking him to not join in or overseed torrents.

We cannot catch this in all cases unless the original uploader contacts a mod in time to see it ourselves or get screenshots like we did in this case.

I also noted his profile in case it happens again.

The last thing we want is discouraged uploaders.

Take care
Brandon

[blackdid]

Thx Brandon

[cumeaternc]

@blackdid:

Thx Brandon

No problem. Thanks for sharing.

[dennysung]

Hi

I did a seed as the material because there will remain only one.
It's wrong??

Other members have had in the idea of hoping to SuperSpeed data
Just as did maintenance.

If it's the next time I will not even supposed to have a problem. :cry2:

[Popper]

@dennysung:

Hi

I did a seed as the material because there will remain only one.
It's wrong??

Other members have had in the idea of hoping to SuperSpeed data
Just as did maintenance.

If it's the next time I will not even supposed to have a problem. :cry2:

It is may be wrong on new torrents.

It is good on old torrents not well seed and then called re-seeding. You may even been ask to help by doing it when a member hit's the "Re-seed" button on the description.

–--

So you need to have a look to the "Added on" date/time and the snatched list and the seeding numbers to get an idea if this is a new torrent still in it's initial upload phase (don't "help"), the initial upload phase been over (4 seeder, snached more than 3 times) > can help or an old bumped-up  (can help)

---

Why is it may be wrong on new torrents? Because the original poster most likely expects to upload at least the full size of the movie (or other data). "Jumping-on" too early is destroying it.

This is a private tracker with ratio control and minimum ratio and some members really need the upload credit to their account to stay above the minimum share ratio, to get/keep Power User status to access the DVD-R category (more than 1000 DVD-Rs here !) .

The damage is the higher if the original poster has selected to Superseed (or Initial Seeding) in his torrent client, because he got only a low upload rate and wants to optimize his upload time by seeding each piece only once first.

To minimize the waiting time to downloaders of getting new torrents completely we've got two rules:

• Only one new torrent at a time
• Limited allowed number of active torrents while uploading a new in the Profile

Besides we it is difficult to programme an anti "wrong" jump-on system protection, we don't have enough and arround the clock without break available staff to survey an possible additional rule.

[mgr]

As amice already told: we can see such cases, but we can't (technically) act against those cases. We admins talked a lot about that problem in the past and still need a good idea how to stop this "jumping on"[nb]definition of "jumping on" for such cases: the user has the same content from somewhere else and only reloads the torrent file from our site and immediately starts seeding the uploaded file himself. That is especially harmful for the original uploader if the "jump-on-user" uses a connection with a high upload bandwidth like a dedicated server based seed box[/nb] on fresh uploads.

We could possibly establish a rule that "jumping on" a new upload is at least "frowned upon", but the only measure we can take (at the moment) is to PM that user and ask him to give the original uploader a chance to increase his ratio by his upload - in case he does not react we could give him a system warning and, as a last measure, ban his account - but that is not really what we want to achieve: we can only appeal to the member and ask him to be fair
In case we can establish a technical way to stop a seeding peer (something the BitTorrent protocol has not implemented) we hopefully can stop such unfair behavior technically - but there is a long way to go

Other questions have still to be discussed too: what about a member which rented a seed-box only for a month to raise his ratio (which needs a push urgently) himself?

Bottom line (for me at least): As long as there is no technical possibility against jumping on new uploads we can only hope (and do everything possible to achieve that goal) that our site keeps all members an impression of "fairness" towards all other members. I hope you all can see these efforts from our side also in our rules.

[geographer]

@blackdid:

Geographer…so you too like Leatherbear's images  

Of course. It has always been a mystery to me how Michael finds such pretty and "on-the-topic" pictures. He has a talent.  :lovp:

[leatherbear]


It is no mystery at all gents. Photobucket has everything for every occasion. I spend way too much time looking for just the right image at times but the the old adage " A picture is worth a thousand words" holds true.

Some think I need treatment for this disease. :rotfl:

[blackdid]

Hi family  
I find this situation a bit strange : a new film appears, for example [Alphamale] Pumped And Fucked (2010) as in my new upload, here :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/details.php?id=92767

Here is a warning message I added in the description :
"Personal message : as seen in the very last description pic, this movie is a compilation of 4 scenes found in 4 other alphamale movies. In case you already got these 4 other movies, there's no need to download anything.
I wish alphamale displays this kind of message in a place where it's more visible, instead of displaying it at the end of the movie…"

So isn't it a bit strange that you don't find this kind of warning message on the studio site ?
Or maybe they don't want it to be clearer so many customers will buy the movie, thinking it's new material, when in fact all 4 scenes are already found in other movies.

Anyway, I prefer to warn clearly our downloaders, so they won't be surprised.
Gladly I watched the movie until the very last image, which allowed me to take a snapshot of the "warning" message, then add it to the description page.

---

Gee...I can't believe it !!!
We are THREE seeders after 5 minutes of upload, too much "jumping on" here...  
And they thank me, how great... Staff, in case you want to PM them and tell them it's very unfair, don't hesitate !

I deleted my torrent after 10 min of upload because i won't let those guys jump on my torrent after 5 min and take all credit for it  
In case Staff wants a pic of the unauthorized seeders names, I took a snapshot before deleting the torrent (it's not the attached pic)

I just sent a PM to both of them, but really this "jump on" situation is not acceptable, a rule could be :

1. Staff  warns the user who jumps on (with a pic proof in Staff's hands) and in case same user is caught a 2nd time...
2. Ban him.

How do you want to go on uploading with a clear mind when this kind of things happen to you ?
Especially it's not the 1st time I catch in real time "jump-on" users on my own torrents

[mgr]

Hi blackdid,

as to the way of studios releasing a "new" video with clips out of older ones - don't let me say my real opinion: although I also like some of "remade" clips like the early videos from Jean Daniel Cadinot on the (up to now only) 5 Cadinot classic DVDs. But of course you are right: these ones are clearly marked

As to "jumping on" I already said my opinion here http://community.gaytor.rent/index.php?topic=12710.msg52843#msg52843, alas I can't add something substantial to that. I'm still a bit hesitant to create your suggested "jumping on rules" : I think it is not fair for our whole community to establish some rules which mainly rely on "denunciation" - I have the feeling that something like that could harm our "family group experience" we try to establish. Of course you are right: jumping on a new upload is extremely unfair too! (Btw: you know how to send pics to me ).

[blackdid]

@mgr:

…Of course you are right: jumping on a new upload is extremely unfair too!

Hi Mgr,

Thx for your concern, I know (and you wrote it) that you don't like at all this "jumping on" situation, same for all Mods here. I PM both users, and a kind Mod did same from helpdesk.

Mgr, in your answer, you're writing : "which mainly rely on "denunciation"
But denunciation is when you can't prove anything and you make something public by giving only names.

Now if you got the proof in your hand (as the attached pic you will find at the end of this message, though I greyed their both names because we're on the Forum) and if this proof goes to Admins and Mods (as I sent this pic to the helpdesk…with users names showing of course), it's not denunciation for me.

The only way to catch "jump on" users is in real time, while the torrent is uploaded until it has been snatched 3-4 times.
If the concerned uploader doesn't do it, who will do it and alert Mods ?
Because if nothing is done, a user who jumps on once will do it again and again : he doesn't prepare anything (the pics, description, torrent...) and takes all credit and ratio that was supposed to go to the original uploader, it is BAD 

Mods don't have time to control from time to time the torrent search window, in case they find a new torrent with 2-3 seeders, when the Snatched column shows 0 : this could be a jump on torrent and it should be immediately controlled.

Anyway, before I paste here what I wrote in my PM to both "jump on" users, and the reply I got from one of them, I would like to say that something has to be done about this situation : personnaly I just did 2 tries to avoid this situation so no one will be able to "jump on" my future new torrents uploads. First try wasn't really successful but 2nd try was more promising : I feel that you won't like this 2nd method but if I have to keep on uploading torrents with a clear mind and not track jump-on users until my torrent has been snatched by 3-4 users, ending in deleting my own torrent after a few minutes because of jump-on users, then I'll use this 2nd method.

---

From blackdid to both "jump-on" users

Hi xxx,

Why you and yyy jump on my torrent after 5 min I start a new upload ?
[Alphamale] Pumped And Fucked (2010)

You force me to delete it immediately because I don't want you and yyy to take credit of my torrent.
Now I placed a message in the Forum, took a real time pic of your 2 names as "jump on" seeders and certainly Staff will ask me that pic.

It's not fair at all to jump on new uploads :

• You don't let me upload a whole copie of the torrent
• You use my preparation (especially the pics preparation, the description), i.e all my work to prepare.
• As my upload speed is low, I won't gain nothing in the end
• It's very impolite.

The RULE is : if you already got the movie (as you had) you can join as seeder only when there are 3-4 users who downloaded the movie totally (i.e. the original uploader, me, was able to upload at least a whole copy of the movie). If they are at least 3-4 who snatched the torrent and 3-4 seeders, then you can add yourself as seeder and jump on a torrent, in case you already got a full copy of the movie.

But with your jump-on (and yyy who did same as you), maybe in the end I upload 20% of the movie, and you 40% and yyy 40%, depending on our respective upload speed.

Especially my upload speed is maximum 28Kb/s !
I hope you understand the situation and never do it again

Thx
blackdid

---

Reply from user xxx to blackdid

Hi my dear friend.

Yes, i know the rules. Let me tell you two things:

• When i start upload, its already been seeded by 3 users.
• Take a look in my upload list. Most of my files have been "jumped on" by a infinite number of members of GT. I make contact with the mods and i was informed that nothing could be done. Like a infinite number of uploads, i take a look at the number of seeders before start upload.  Im sorry if you're been offended, my intention its not take your credit, its help with upload, just if. Like i said, I've gone through this before.

My best regards.

xxx

---

2nd PM from blackdid to xxx

Hi xxx

Thx for your reply
Here are 2 links :

---

(here a link of the attached pic, but showing their both names)

You notice in the precedent pic that :

• It was seeded by 2 users (including me) and not 3 users as you wrote in your reply
• What is more important is this when you write : "I take a look at the number of seeders before start upload"

But you're mistaken in doing that because there are 2 very different situations :

1. If it's a NEW torrent (as it is in the pic), you have to take a look at the number of users who SNATCHED the torrent (i.e who downloaded it completely from me)

What do you see in the pic ?
You see that ZERO users have snatched the torrent, which means that nobody has downloaded the movie from me at the moment the pic is taken !
In that case, you and yyy know exactly what you are doing (jumping on) when you add yourself as seeders, and this is very bad because you both will take all the credit instead of me (i.e you won't allow me to upload a full copy of the movie, which isn't acceptable at all)

2. If it is an OLD torrent, then you will see many users who already SNATCHED the torrent
   Then there is absolutely no problem to add yourself as seeder, no matter if you already got a full copy of the movie.

---

(here a link of the thread we are now)

This is the Forum link I opened as I was so angry of this situation, you will see Mgr's anwer (he's one of the 2 Admins of the site) and though he can't technically stop it, he doesn't like this situation at all as you will read him

---

You write : "Most of my files have been "jumped on" by a infinite number of members of GT"
No I don't think so, what you mean is, after your downloaders have got their copy from your new upload, they start to seed it and you are many seeders : this is the NORMAL way in torrents, many seeders who seed the same file after they download it from the original uploader !!!
It happens with me all the time and it's 100% normal.

What is NOT normal, is to add yourself as seeder when there is ZERO snatcher like in the attached pic : this means you already had a full copy of the movie when you added yourself as seeder.

In case you want to do that, you have to verify how many persons SNATCHED the torrent ?
If you find there are 3-4 then you can add yourself as seeder because you will know that the original uploader was able to upload a full copy of his torrent to these 3-4 users, and probably in a few seconds there will be many other seeders (because other users have certainly downloaded already 97-98% of the file)

In case this is not very clear, don't hesitate to ask more or to reply in the Forum : all Mods or Mgr will confirm you what I wrote now

Merry Christmas xxx,
blackdid

---

Mgr, Mods, in case I wrote some wrong technical info to user xxx, please let us know so we'll improve our knowledge.
Thanks

[blackdid]

Now that we started this "jump on" thread, I have to let you know the following of our PM with xxx (who answered me just right now)

---

2nd PM from xxx to blackdid

HI!
Let's clear a few misunderstood. I'm not a new user, and i know the rules, ok?
I really made a mistake, offending you. I have been warned and my download-rights have been taken.
This doesnt mean that I act to harm you, or wanted to offend you, it was an act without thinking.
I'm sorry, ok? Its not an excuse for what happened, but I've already been punished. It was a big misunderstood. Won't happen again.
Like i said, I've gone through this before. A NEW upload, not an old, I started seed my file and a few moments later, appear 2 seeders with 100% complete. They already had the same file. I know what is it, i'm not stupid.
Sorry again, and i hope we can pass through this.

Merry Christmas for you too, and a happy new year.

My best regards.
xxx

---

I won't answer xxx anymore because one has to know when to stop a conversation, there's no need to make things get worse by arguing, which doesn't not mean I agree with him, because I don't.

Why is that ?
Because in his first PM he wrote : "Most of my files have been "jumped on" by a infinite number of members of GT"
And in his 2nd PM : "A NEW upload, not an old, I started seed my file and a few moments later, appear 2 seeders with 100% complete"

So you understand now, in his 2nd answer, that it happened to him already (to be "jumped on") but it probably happened a FEW times. Alas in his 1st PM he said he had been "jumped on" in MOST of his files by an INFINITE numbers of users, which seems impossible !!!

Who is going to believe that in "most of your new uploads" there are "infinite" users who already got the same file you started to upload and "jump on" your new uploads before 3-4 leechers completed a full download ?

His erroneous sentence in his 1st PM made me think he was mistaken and didn't know what "jump on" means etc…

---

Ok, he seems to be a nice guy, he apologized and wrote he "won't do it again"
I'm sorry his download rights have been disabled for a few days, but isn't it the only way for users to learn what to do and what not to do when they don't follow the rules ?
In case one day I do same "jump on" on anyone, I ask officially to be punished same way !

During my 32 uploads, I've been "jumped on" twice.
First time was in attached pics 1-2, when user zzz jumped on my fresh torrent : please note in pic 1 that my torrent hasn't been snatched (snatched = 0) and user zzz is a "jump on" seeder, also note the best leecher downloaded 63% of the torrent.

In pic 2, you'll notice the best leecher has downloaded 94% of the file and what are my stats ?
I hardly uploaded 288Mb (when the movie size is 549MB as shown in pic 1)  :cry2:
And my "jump on" seeder zzz proudly uploaded 465MB
A few minutes later, many leechers had complete their download, which means I had been able to upload only 50% of my OWN movie (instead of 100% or more), because of jump-on seeder zzz  

Pic3 shows another problem and this is maybe what Mgr meant : this pic doesn't concern me at all but I found a "jump on" user while browsing in the torrent search window.

My question is : what are the options you have when you discover nadvertently the situation described in pic 3 ?

1. You do nothing ("it doesn't concern me, why should I interfere and alert anyone ?")
2. Or you immediately send a message to HelpDesk (without sending them any pic) and let Mods solve that issue.
3. Or you take a snapshot, upload it on BitBucket, alert HelpDesk (including the Bitbucket link) and let Mods solve that issue with a proof in their hands.

Though I don't like a lot options 2) and 3) because it seems to be a kind of "denunciation" (as named it Mgr) I don't like at all option 1) which is : "why should I do anything if it doesn't concern me ?"

Ok it doesn't concern you, but this guy you caught "jumping on"  could one day jump on YOUR torrent, then you'll regret you hadn't done anything in time, when you caught him with proof, even if it didn't concern one of your torrent.

How do you want to get rid of "jump on" users if members who catch them in real-time don't alert Mods immediately ?
Guys, in case you have suggestions concerning this issue, please feel free to express your point of view.

[mgr]

Sorry for being a bit late with my answer  

As a first thing let me say something about the usage of my expression "denunciation". In my posting i intentionally wrote that in apostrophes to express that I prefer technical possibilities to stop unfair behavior opposed to member reports (with or without proof).

And just at the start:
@blackdid:

My question is : what are the options you have when you discover nadvertently the situation described in pic 3 ?

1. You do nothing ("it doesn't concern me, why should I interfere and alert anyone ?")
2. Or you immediately send a message to HelpDesk (without sending them any pic) and let Mods solve that issue.
3. Or you take a snapshot, upload it on BitBucket, alert HelpDesk (including the Bitbucket link) and let Mods solve that issue with a proof in their hands.

1. isn't an option IMHO - that is why we have the report button in our forum, in user profiles, in PM handling, in torrent details …

Not to mention your already stated reasons against this option.

The problem with the report solution and your option 2 is in fact the proof. Not all mods on the site can react immediately on such requests (reports or help desk request) - so it may take a couple of hours until we can see the torrent file - only after the visible proof is gone and the only remaining solution is to deduct what has happened some hours ago. Of course there are "easy" cases where the torrent is still not snatched and several seeders, but in other cases there are 200 seeders already and more than 500 entries in the snatched list. It takes a lot of efforts to find a "jumping on" seeder then - if ever possible.

BTW: you can also include a bitbucket link in a report-reason

So: the only remaining option to handle such cases is your option 3) or, the solution you selected too, to PM that seeder directly. I hope that such problems can be resolved also in that way

As you can see we (staff) try to solve such problems as best as we can. As I said at the start of my reply: I prefer technical solutions over reports, but alas the BitTorrent protocol does not offer such a solution and to manually search for such cases might be possible if we have 30 moderators additionally who are experienced enough to watch new uploads for their first seeding time to detect those cases - but: have a look at our staff page - we have enough problems to approve uploaded torrents in a timely manner and, additionally, check samples of auto approved uploads

[leatherbear]

Well, because the evidence in this case was so obvious I reacted quickly and harshly on purpose.

5 days warning and 5 days with out download rights. Both users no better and so I hammered them harder than I might have done with 2 other members. It is also my intentions to do this in every case I come across with the evidence to prove the claim.

If I am wrong and need to be corrected now is the time for that talk…..........

BTW: I only heard from one of the accused so I am assuming they both got the message.

[blackdid]

@mgr:

Sorry for being a bit late with my answer  

So you like that blushing icon, uh ?
Lol remember how I told you it would be useful  

@mgr:

As a first thing let me say something about the usage of my expression "denunciation". In my posting i intentionally wrote that in apostrophes to express that I prefer technical possibilities to stop unfair behavior opposed to member reports (with or without proof).

I got an idea, what about this technical possibillity ?
A control to add during NEW torrents only : as soon as seeder #2 appears, the program controls how many persons already snatched the torrent : if you find 0, then seeder #2 is a "jump-on" seeder.
Well…it seems too simple to be the solution, right ?

Someone should detail ALL the different existing cases when you're 100% sure a 2nd seeder is a "jump-on" seeder (not forgetting dead torrents who are reactivated etc... though these torrents should have more than 0 snatcher, no ?)

But what intrigues me a bit is this : when a user logs in to GT, what is he going to do in most cases ?
1) He wants to download something new, so he'll enter the torrent search window and check what's new since his last visit, then starts to download if he's interested by a new movie he doesn't already get : this is an easy case.

2) OR he wants to upload a NEW movie, so he'll enter the torrent search window to search for duplicates, and when he's sure there are not, he will start to prepare his new upload : this is also an easy case.

(I won't describe another possible situation which consists of not entering GT, but simply add an OLD torrent in the client program to seed it again : that's easy too and will never harm anyone)

3) Now I think of another case that might end in a voluntarily…or involuntarily "jump-on"
During 1) or 2) , when the user is searching in the torrent window, he suddenly finds a hot torrent and this may happen :

3a) Whether the user KNOWS 100% that he got the movie on his hard drive (maybe he was in case 2) [checking for dups] and it is the EXACT movie he was checking for dups before he uploads it but, alas, another user was quicker than him and already uploaded it as a fresh torrent. Or maybe he was in case 1) [searching what to download] and realized while browsing [for downloads], that he too had this fresh torrent on his hard drive and intented to upload it later)

Now this user may be a bit "angry" because he won't be able to upload his new torrent (as another user just did it before him) and he'll "jump-on" the original uploader (probably after having checked the file size to make sure it's exactly the same movie, which isn't innocent at all), no matter how many users have already snatched this file or not, no matter if he takes credits from the original uploader or not.

Btw, I got a question : are the  "jump-on" rules clearly explained in GT rules or FAQ ?
Because I searched right now and didn't find them anymore (all I know about "jump-on" comes from Mgr, Uwe and other Mods, but it's all Forum related, not GT rules/faq related)

The only thing I found concerning "jump on" in Rules or FAQ is the following link…but it has nothing to do with the "upload jump-on" we're talking now, because this FAQ link concerns "download jump-on" :
http://tracker.gaytor.rent/faq.php#46

In case a "jump-on" rule ("join seeding" or "re-seed") has to be added in the FAQ, why not using one of Mgr's preceding explanations, or Uwe's 1st chapter in the attached pic, where he explains it really well ? (btw, this attached pic is a part of a Forum topic, so there's no problem with user names in it)

So as you see, a possibility is the user is honest and doesn't know he's harming anyone when doing a "jump-on", in case it's not clearly stated in the Rules / FAQ , not everyone consult how many persons have aready snatched the torrent etc…
Or the user knows exactly he's doing a wrong thing, but how can we be sure if the user is honest or not ?

3b) Whether the user DOESN'T REMEMBER he already downloaded this movie from another site (so he got a full copy on his hard drive) and now he clicks on the torrent, thinking honestly he's starting to download it from GT (when in fact he'll join seeding a fresh torrent !)

So all of this isn't simple at all, what do you think ?
Mgr will certainly tell us if the (too easy ?) technical solution I described could help or not : this would help GT to get rid of jump-on users, whether these "jumps-on" are voluntary or not.

[MrMazda]

Blackdid:

As far as my understanding goes, the rules of jump-on are more "implied rules". Some staff may argue that we are a filesharing site, so really sharing files is the whole point of the mattter. Other staff may not view jump on seeders very kindly on a new upload. It would also depend on the nature of the jump on. I personally take a viewpoint of it's not a nice thing to jump on to seeding a new upload because it cheats the uploader of the full credit of the 1.000 ratio of the file. That being said however, I cannot say that my personal view is nescessarily that of this site. Perhaps mgr can shed some light on the subject at some point.

Either way, jump on seeders don't bother me because I have a seedbox (which I'm expanding), which maintains my ratio on an upward incline on its own giving me 12 SBP / day. I cannot say that it is fair to expect all users to have the same kind of setup for a variety of reasons. So really, that's kind of a subject that I'd like to see a a more even loosely described rule regarding jump on seeders.