Gay and Muslim
-
Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups. It is NOT defined by what is written in religious texts. Religious texts are cultural artefacts. They (and their interpretation) are the product of religion, not the other way around.
You don't see the irony of you, an atheist, telling Muslims how they should interpret their religious texts?
You often see the argument on social media:
Christian: Quote from Proverbs, quote from Genesis, quote from Job, quote from Samuel.
Atheist: But the old testament also says your should not cut your hair and not wear clothes made from more than one kind of thread.
Christian: Well Jesus came to give us a new covenant. The Old Testament isn't relevant anymore.
Atheist: But you were just quoting from the Old Testament!
Christian: Ummmmm.
Both sides in this discussion have got it wrong. Christianity is NOT defined by the Bible. It has not been learnt by reading the Bible. It has been learnt within a family and a social group (the church). The problem in Christianity (and Christian influenced culture including the atheists) that because of the reformation, people think that a religion IS defined by a text, creating this cognitive confusion.
This is even less true of Islam and other religions. For most of the history of Islam (and of Christianity), the Quran and the Bible were not even translated into languages that people could understand.
I know many gay Muslims, mainly from India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. I know the Middle-East is different, but most Muslims don't live in the Middle-East. They live in South and South-East Asia. I have seen two gay men dressed in Desi drag (Saris, Indian Jewellery, wigs, makeup) kneeling on floor doing their prayers before going out to the Taxi Club in Sydney to pick up Lebanese men (who apparently like that kind of thing).
I have been in a gay night club in Dacca during Ramadan where they have suddenly turned off the very loud music because of the last call to prayer and then a lot of the men there knelt down to pray.
-
You are still obsessed with the protestant Christian notion that religions are defined by "Holy Texts".
You do realise that Christianity existed before the New Testament did?
You observe that Christians "Cherry Pick" from the OT and the NT and Muslims basically ignore the Quran, but you don't get that YOUR understanding of the relationship between religion and "holy texts" is wrong, not their's?
As I said earlier, one of the weirdest things you find on social media is "atheists" insisting that Christians and Muslims be religious fundamentalists. In other words, atheists who have a purely fundamentalist (mis-)understanding of Religion.
At most, a literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible) only condemns anal sex between men. However:
1. Girls are publicly caned in Malaysia for kissing in public (not men and not having anal sex).
2. Men are arrested and imprisoned in Egypt for dancing together at a party on a boat (not having anal sex).
3. A boy is expelled from school in the USA for wanting to bring his boyfriend to the school prom (not wanting to have anal with his boyfriend at the school prom).
4. A B&B in the USA refuses to honour a booking made by two men (to stay in a room, not a booking to have anal sex) because it is against their "Christian Values".If religion is based on "holy texts" as you insist, how do you explain this discrepancy?
-
Yes, of course religion is made up. I already said that religion is a cultural phenomenon and that "sacred texts" as cultural artefacts. No intelligent person would seriously believe otherwise. It is strange that you seem to have doubts.
Religious beliefs change every few decades, even more frequently now. Many religious beliefs that have been falsified by science have dropped out of fashion. Liberation theology, evangelical prosperity theology and the psychotic interpretations of the Quran that ISIS/DAESH (/CIA/MOSAD) have been pushing are new and have not existed previously in those religions.
I personally have no use for the religious beliefs of Christio-Islam and I suspect you don't either. The thing that is most strange about this thread is that the religious belief that is most obviously false, that is most obviously inconsistent, that is unique to only Protestant Christianity until very recently, that you yourself have given examples of as being false, is the belief you hold onto most strongly. That is that religions are defined by sacred texts.
Of course you are going to have a hard time holding onto that for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto etc. etc. etc. for what sacred text do you suggest defines them?
This topic basically says, "Being Gay is inconsistent with being Muslim because the Quran condemns anal sex between men" despite the fact that their are millions of religious gay muslims, that Islamic literature and art have many examples of homoeroticism and that until very very recently the Islamic world has been more tolerant of homosexual relationships than the West. These are the facts only contradicted by your deep devotion to the obviously false belief that people's religion is defined by what is written in books.
-
Interesting. An Atheists making judgements about who is and who isn't a "shitty" Muslim based on his own religious beliefs about the importance of religious texts.
Yes, Buddhism has a huge volume of scriptures but none of them define Buddhism, though I guess you as a non-Buddhist are going to tell me as a Buddhist about my own religion. Not surprising since you seem to think yourself qualified to teach gay Muslims about Islam.
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627
-
As long as you are not in a Muslim country with a threat of retribution who are you hurting?
-
Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
-
Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
And? Whoever said religious faith is rational and consistent? In fact the famous Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (the author of the five proofs of god that Richard Dawkins dismally failed to understand let alone refute in his God Delusion book) said that if people were forced to believe because of reason, then they would not be saved because they hadn't made the choice. An Islamic philosopher who's name escapes me at the moment said about the same thing.
If you believe in the kind of god Christio-Muslims believe in, it is not subject to reason. Strangely, many pseudo-atheists remain embedded in Western Christian culture and so believe that an idea based on facts and reason can itself be a truth. Presumably these ideas/truths float around in the universal supernatural mind (but don't mention the word "god").
Of course ideas only exist in one place that we know of in the entire universe; human minds. Only facts (primarily phenomenological facts) are truths.
-
Yes, religion is totally made up, obviously.
Not all religions are theistic, depend on a belief in the supernatural or require any beliefs at all (for example Zen Buddhism) so you can be religious and be an atheist.
Religion is essentially psychotherapy. Religious beliefs are psychotherapeutically useful fictions (useful bullshit). Their usefulness does not depend on them being logical, consistent or "true". Meditation, drugs or counselling by a psychologist are more effective.
Most of the literature, art, plays, movies ever made are depict something that is "made up" i.e. fictional. Many people are inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker and the concept of The Force but very few of them think that the story is non-fiction. Something doesn't have to be true to be useful. Not everything made up is bullshit.
The theories of science are similarly useful fictions. They are made up by scientists and mathematicians and tested against facts. If they explain existing facts then they are useful. If they predict future facts they are even more useful. If they are falsified by facts they are modified or discarded. They are never true.
I don't believe there is a god or there is a supernatural because those beliefs are useless to me. I have no problem if someone else finds those beliefs useful to them as long as they don't think the beliefs that they chose authorise them to affect the lives of people who haven't made the same choice. Historically there is only one religion that assumes that authorisation, and it isn't Islam.
-
Today I went with some friends to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Festival Fair Day. In the section were religious groups have their stalls, I noticed the Sydney Queer Muslims stall.
I wasn't surprised that there was no long queue of Gay Christians and Atheists waiting to explain to them how they don't understand their own religion and that Gay Christians and Atheists know more about Islam that Gay Muslims do, because such people only exist in social media echo chambers, not in the real world.
-
I know it is out of fashion in the new world of reactionary populist conservatives, but facts outweigh opinions. The social media mantra is "everyone has a right to their own opinions", but not all opinions have the same weight. Some opinions are supported by facts and some are falsified by them. Some opinions are wrong. People do not have a right to hold an opinion that is falsified by the facts.
The opinion that it is raining outside now does not have the same weight as the opinion that it isn't. Depending on the facts, one of these is wrong. The other is right. So let's weight the apparently majority opinion on this thread against some facts:
OPINION
“You can’t be gay and be a Muslim”.
FACTS
1. There are thousands, probably millions of gay Muslims. I know a few of them personally.
2. There are gay friendly mosques in France, Canada, USA, Australia etc..
3. Recently gay couples have been married in mosques.
4. Sydney has a “Queer Muslims” group. I saw their stall at the Mardi Gras fair day last weekend. I know many other countries have similar groups.
5. Until very recently (late 1970s), in Muslim countries that do not have a legacy of European colonial laws, homosexuality was not criminalised. Homosexuality was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including most of the Middle East) in the 19th century, long before many Western countries. In Iran it was never illegal until 1979. In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation, homosexuality has never been illegal until very recently where it was outlawed in two provinces for Muslim residents of those provinces only.
6. European gay men used to migrate to North Africa (mainly Morocco) and the Middle East or the Greek Islands under Ottoman rule to escape persecution and stigma. e.g. https://www.gaytor.rent/details.php?returnto=%2Fmytorrents.php&id=1d2499d5cba28cbab9f5b89e8d356c2c02d21710dd948dad
7. There are very many examples of explicit homoeroticism in Islamic Art and literature.
8. There are many examples of Islamic rulers who were homosexual. One of the rulers of Cordoba had a male harem. Another (maybe the same one) had his wife cut her hair and dress as a man to be more pleasing to him. The first Mughal emperor Babur wrote in his memoir of his infatuation with a young man in his youth and his refusal to sleep with the wives that had been arranged for him because of his love for the young man.
9. In the majority of countries (including Muslim countries) where homosexuality is still illegal, the laws derive from inherited colonial European criminal codes that conservative societies have in many cases failed to reform, not from Islamic law. e.g. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, India (until recently), and many African countries inherited anti-sodomy laws from the British criminal code.So clearly, the opinion “You can’t be gay and be a Muslim” is falsified by the facts. The opinion is wrong.
-
"You can't be gay and Muslim" is a belief or an opinion.
"There are thousands of gay Muslims" is a fact.
Facts falsify opinions in the real world.
I wonder how many Americans when they hear Fox News weather forecast that it is not going to rain walk around outside soaked to the skin in the rain saying "It can't be raining! It can't be raining!".
Sane people when faced with facts that contradict their opinions realise that there is something wrong with their opinion.
-
You can't be muslim if you ignore the absolute perfect word of god.
I guess I can claim to be a buddhist, despite the fact that I don't follow it's teaching.
I can claim to be the King of Siam, but it doesn't make it true.
If that now nearly 60yo man, can be a 6yo girl and Shaun "Talcum X" King can be black, then I guess there can be gay muslims.
When mt nephew said he was a doctor last weekend, I guess he really was, despite not having started 1st grade yet. He was a fireman a few days before that.
A century ago most people in MENA were illiterate, were there no Muslims if religiosity was based on hearsay?
To your point about the literal word of god, that is true if you look at the belief system in its entirety but ultimately what matters is how millions of people perceive themselves and project that on to the world.
It is most definitely harder to reconcile who you are and who your belief system wants you to be when the texts are supposed to be the literal word of god and there is an emphasis on being a perfect being. But it is not impossible.
The original question was "Gay and Muslim" and not "Gay and Islam". Followers of other Abrahamic religions reconcile the two things, so why can't individual Muslims? Sure others aren't usually as rigid but does that matter for the individual who is contravening a core portion of their belief system and whose religiosity is questioned by the other followers of said religion? An LGBT-affirming evangelical is still an evangelical even if most of their peers think they're an unbeliever.
This is a valid point:
Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups.
-
I will say it again.
There are thousands of gay Muslims. There are gay friendly mosques. There are queer Muslim support and activist groups. Islam has a long history of tolerance of homosexuality before political changes in the late 20th century. These are undeniable facts.
That you can't be gay and Muslim is an opinion made clearly false by these facts.
Continuing to hold an opinion that is contradicted by facts is insanity, but all too common among conservatives. After all, many still believe things like Obama is a Muslim and that Japan applies a "bowling ball" test to American car imports.
After all, isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Aren't people entitled to their opinions that 1 + 1 = 346, the best place to grown pineapples is Antarctica and the moon is made of margarine?
-
Nope enough.
You are claiming to be an expert on Islam, Islamic exogesis, and Quran. There are standards.
You have said that the Quran states that Allah forbids homosexuality. Here is a site with various English translations of the Quran. Tell all of us which verse(s) state some version of 'man shall not have sex with other man'. Having read and taught the Quran I say that it's interpretation but you insist that it's explicit - put your money where your mouth is.
You've stated that Muslims believe that the word of Allah as being put forth in the Quran is the authority. Please identify the Islamic jurists who state this in each of the four main Sunni madhabs as well as the main Shia groups. I think that they use Ahadith, analogy, and cultural norms as sources for religious laws and as the basis for the interpretation of those (very) few laws put forward in the Quran.
I'm neither a Liberal (the political party Justin Trudeau heads) nor a liberal. I'm just tired of conservatives making up their own facts, lying their heads off, and not shutting up when it's pointed out that: Coronavirus exists, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was created by the Russian secret police, the Earth is more than 6,000 years old, vaccines don't cause Autism….
-
I recommend that you ask a gay Muslim why your opinion about Islam is so wrong.
You could of course just Google what gay Muslims and gay Imams say.
Though I happened to mentioned something about this weird phenomenon of atheists and christians claiming to know more about Islam than Muslims do to a good friend who is both Muslim and gay. To summarise the answer, the Quran says God is merciful and God is compassionate a huge number of times, I think he said 150 or something. He said that overrides anything else and that there is nothing that clearly condemns homosexuality anyway.
And PS, I notice you've fallen for your own propaganda about the two 15 year old "gay" men supposedly hanged in Iran for being gay. They were actually convicted or raping a 10 year old boy and it was never established that they were gay.
https://76crimes.com/2019/06/13/iran-defends-harsh-laws-but-does-it-execute-men-for-homosexuality/
Also, giving the example of ISIS (an organisation who's highly heterodox interpretations of that Quran were condemned by nearly every Islamic scholar and leader in the world and is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims), executing gay MUSLIMS, doesn't really help your argument does it.
-
I'm From Brazil and i'm not undestanding all this discussions.
Yeah, muslins in general are homophobes and there are extremist muslin groups that kill queer people in the name of religion.
But
I live in a christian country and Brazil alone kills more queer people than all Middle East countries together.
So what? Where's all the lecture about christians being radical bloody assassins of queer people too?
I don't see any difference of muslins from protestants (evangélicos pentecostais e neopentecostais no Brasil).
Remember they are 1/3 of the world population, if they were all terrorists like it sounds in this discussion the world would have already ended.We don't need fingers pointed to each others face, but a social culture that stimulates respect and sufocates any prejudice that comes with religion.
-
(Agnosthic here)
-
This discussion is about "gay and muslim" so that is why it is the focus.
I still think the way the discussion developed it's a bad way.
Instead of stimulates people to change the strutures of their religion I have only seen finger pointed and posts that can be resumed to "muslins are evil and vile, gay muslins either" in a website with a big arabic forum right there, indicating that are way more gay muslins then we can see.I undestand that you dislikes religious stuff, but I don't think this way it's a good way to talk about these subjects.
(And i feel some prejudice in your speech, I say it as a outside viewer, that is non-european, non-british, non-muslin, non-religious at all, a way different context with no terrorist attacks and no middle east immigrants).
I don't know if my post will contribute here, but I felt someone should post it.
-
Islam is the only religion that beheads gays and throws them off buildings, whilst being completely true to the spirit and letter of its sacred text.
-
I couldnt undertsand. I am a muslim. But i believe that what is the Allah's reason to created us be like that? Some muslims say like that "this world is testing zone who is praying allah and being good person, who will be go to heaven. And some person came to world with some problem like blind or cripple. That is the real test for him or her. And if they handle it thoose problem they will go to heaven" Being gay is test for people who is gay. But i am gay and also i will be gay in the future. I cant do anything about it.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login