Gay and Muslim
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jordan-horner-teenage-white-muslim-2051097
Proof that islam isn't a race, despite the screams of those that hate free speech and want to shut down any criticism.
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It would be nice to see a discussion about what it's like to be Gay and Muslim rather than people who aren't Muslim yelling at one another.
I'm Jewish and pretty religious. I'm also strongly identified as Queer. (It seems like being Gay involves a lot of working out, buying clothes and listening to banal movies.) There are Jewish people who are pretty homophobic. There are Jewish people who are very supportive of same-sex rights. I think the majority don't give a rat's ass.
I do interfaith work with Progressive Muslims. Some have to deal with a shitload of sexism and homophobia in the Muslim community. Some have to deal with racism, hatred of immigrants, and hatred of Muslims. Most have to deal with both.
Myself, being from North African (Tunisian) Jewish descent get the ironic situation that sometimes people yell things at me because they think I'm Jewish and sometimes yell things at me because they think I'm Muslim. There's not a difference from my experience.
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That would be an interesting topic, but I would still have to ask why anyone would worship a god that their holy texts says their god HATES them. Any god that hates you as much as the Abrahamic god does, doesn't deserve to be worshiped by you.
I also hate being lied to. I have read the holy texts of several religions over the years.
If you (generic) tell me that your religion says something that is not true, I'm gonna call you out. If you wish it said something else, then say that. If you wish that your holy texts said something else that is this fundamental, then you really need to think if you should be part of the religion.
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I'm amazed by the level of ignorance in this thread. It's hard to know where to start. Sadly a lot of Americans are heavily influenced by propaganda in that country. First let me say that I was born a Hindu but I am now a Zen Buddhist. Although my main tertiary education is in Mathematics, Computer Science (and I am now studying for a PhD in that field), I took several subjects in religion at University. So here are some facts:
1. the word "homosexuality" first appeared in print in Austria in the late 1800's. The concept of sexuality (an innate subconscious sexual attraction) is modern: the product of modern psychological understanding and the theory of the subconscious mind. There is no reference to homosexuality in the Quran. There is no reference to homosexuality in the Bible. The first translation of the Bible that included the word "homosexual" was in 1941. This translates sexual acts as sexuality which is clearly an (probably intentional) error by modern homophobes.
2. When someone quotes "Kill the infidels wherever you find them" (post number two), you know you are dealing with someone completely brainwashed by the lies and distortions of the US far right propaganda machine. The "Infidels" in that verse refers specifically to the people of Mecca who were persecuting the Muslims in the early days of Islam as is very clear by the wider context. Islam in fact is the only world religion that specifically recognises other religions (Judaism and Christianity aka the "people of the book") as valid.
3. "People like to cherry pick from their religion" from some other post. Religion is defined by what the people who identify as members of that religion actually believe and actually do. It is not defined by what is written in books or what religious leaders say. In Christianity, there is the Catholic/Protestant polemic where the reformation attempted to claim that the literal interpretation of the Bible was more important than the traditions and beliefs of the Christian community. This ONLY applies to Christianity. Until only very recently (late 19th century under the influence of Christian missionaries), this was completely alien to Islam and remains alien to all of the other world religions. It is the weirdest thing you will ever read on social media where Christian (influenced) people try to tell Muslims what they believe by quoting the Quran and Hadiths at them. The vast majority of Muslims have never read the Quran and certainly not the Hadiths. Religion is learned within families and social groups, not from reading a book and very little from listening to religious teachers.
In my experience, growing up in Mysore and Bangalore in India and now living in Australia, Muslim families are more tolerant and understanding of their gay sons than most other families. In the same-sex marriage vote in Australia recently, surveys showed that the percentage vote in favour in Muslim communities was lower than the community in general, but higher than in evangelical Christians or even in the Chinese community.
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1. Just because the word "homosexuality" didn't exist at the time, doesn't mean it was an unknown concept. Ancient Greece and Rome it was quite common. You seriously need to stop lying about what is in the quran.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
2. LOL, you need to try harder. The quran is full of commands to kill others. Be honest and tell us what else the quran says about christians and jews.
3. Based on what you said, islam is the religion of terrorism. You also admit that muslims are totally ignorant of their own religion.
Clearly, muslims aren't as accepting as you claim.
BTW, The Guardian is an ultra leftist rag.
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You really need to educate yourself with some academic sources, not web sites like "religion of peace" FFS. The Islamic world has a large body of homoerotic literature and art. Homosexual sex was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including the whole of the Middle-East) in the mid-19th Century, long before it was legalised in the West. European homosexual men fled to Islamic Morroco, Greece (under Ottoman rule) etc. to flee persecution at home. Iran had a royal gay wedding in the 1970's. Homosexual sex was only made illegal in Iran in 1979 and in Saudi Arabia (in imitation) in 1980, both for political reasons, not religious. Islamic history has stories of several rulers who had sexual relationships with other men, for example several of the Caliphs of Cordoba and Babur, the founder or the Mughal Empire in India.
Yes, of course homosexuality existed before it was understood by modern psychology but the concept of an innate subconscious behavioural preference did not. The concept did not exist and there was no word for it. Yes, men have been having sex with men for as long as there have been men. Formal sexual relationships between men and men or men and adolescents existed in many cultures including Ancient Greece and Rome but it was not understood in the way that we do now.
The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
1. The majority of homosexuals are women.
2. There are many homosexual men who do not or have not yet had sex with another man.
3. Surveys show that a small proportion of heterosexual men have sex with other men and given the small proportion of men who are homosexual, the number of heterosexual men who have sex with other men actually outnumbers the total number of homosexual who have sex with men.So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
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The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
That is the complete opposite of your previous claim.
I used that site because it was quick and easy. If you claim that they are lying about the quotes from the quran, then it's up to you to prove it.
So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
Are you seriously gonna try to pull that crap?
Looking at another man in a faggy way is enough to get you punished. I know, I know, your rebuttal is that "in a faggy way" wasn't a term in use in the 7th century.
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The Economist is now an expert in homosexuality in the middle east?
Go back and read what I wrote in the 8th post (I think that's it, haven't had my coffee yet). I covered some of the things in the quran.
The British and the French didn't go into the region until 1,100 years later. So how an the be blamed for what the quran says? Are you claiming time travel is real?
Also, it seems that there is "racism of low expectations" by claiming that even the Europeans have left the region (no longer control it) that the brown people are to thick to modernise and do the morally right thing.
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Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups. It is NOT defined by what is written in religious texts. Religious texts are cultural artefacts. They (and their interpretation) are the product of religion, not the other way around.
You don't see the irony of you, an atheist, telling Muslims how they should interpret their religious texts?
You often see the argument on social media:
Christian: Quote from Proverbs, quote from Genesis, quote from Job, quote from Samuel.
Atheist: But the old testament also says your should not cut your hair and not wear clothes made from more than one kind of thread.
Christian: Well Jesus came to give us a new covenant. The Old Testament isn't relevant anymore.
Atheist: But you were just quoting from the Old Testament!
Christian: Ummmmm.
Both sides in this discussion have got it wrong. Christianity is NOT defined by the Bible. It has not been learnt by reading the Bible. It has been learnt within a family and a social group (the church). The problem in Christianity (and Christian influenced culture including the atheists) that because of the reformation, people think that a religion IS defined by a text, creating this cognitive confusion.
This is even less true of Islam and other religions. For most of the history of Islam (and of Christianity), the Quran and the Bible were not even translated into languages that people could understand.
I know many gay Muslims, mainly from India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. I know the Middle-East is different, but most Muslims don't live in the Middle-East. They live in South and South-East Asia. I have seen two gay men dressed in Desi drag (Saris, Indian Jewellery, wigs, makeup) kneeling on floor doing their prayers before going out to the Taxi Club in Sydney to pick up Lebanese men (who apparently like that kind of thing).
I have been in a gay night club in Dacca during Ramadan where they have suddenly turned off the very loud music because of the last call to prayer and then a lot of the men there knelt down to pray.
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So, what you are saying is that I can call myself [insert religion] and do whatever I want, regardless if it goes completely against the holy texts of that religion.
There is no irony, in my comments, when a bunch of cherry pickers are wanting to force their religion on me. That survey from about 2013 showed that British muslims are against homosexuality and want sharia law, while claiming welfare for their 5 wives which is clearly against the quran. They do many things that violate the quran, but that's ok to them.
As for the atheist vs christian thing, it's because christians cherry pick from both the OT and NT, while saying that the OT doesn't apply to them. It can't be both. Either the OT applies or it doesn't. If it doesn't apply then they need to shut up about it.
Just because gay muslims do something, does not mean that it's allowed according to their holy texts. This applies to any muslim.
There are religious and cultural jews, for example. The same could be said for muslims (and others). If they are "cultural", then they have no claim on religious beliefs and need to keep their mouths shut about what their holy texts say.
BTW, I'm not sure if you see it, but your stance justifies burning holy texts because they don't matter to religion. It's extremely ironic, but totally expected, that atheists read holy texts but believers don't.
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You are still obsessed with the protestant Christian notion that religions are defined by "Holy Texts".
You do realise that Christianity existed before the New Testament did?
You observe that Christians "Cherry Pick" from the OT and the NT and Muslims basically ignore the Quran, but you don't get that YOUR understanding of the relationship between religion and "holy texts" is wrong, not their's?
As I said earlier, one of the weirdest things you find on social media is "atheists" insisting that Christians and Muslims be religious fundamentalists. In other words, atheists who have a purely fundamentalist (mis-)understanding of Religion.
At most, a literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible) only condemns anal sex between men. However:
1. Girls are publicly caned in Malaysia for kissing in public (not men and not having anal sex).
2. Men are arrested and imprisoned in Egypt for dancing together at a party on a boat (not having anal sex).
3. A boy is expelled from school in the USA for wanting to bring his boyfriend to the school prom (not wanting to have anal with his boyfriend at the school prom).
4. A B&B in the USA refuses to honour a booking made by two men (to stay in a room, not a booking to have anal sex) because it is against their "Christian Values".If religion is based on "holy texts" as you insist, how do you explain this discrepancy?
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You keep proving that holy texts mean absolutely nothing so there is no problem to wipe my ass with the pages or burning them.
Oddly though, believers get bitchy when you disrespect their holy texts.
You are not a christian if you ignore what the bible claims Jesus said and did. Same with muslims ignoring the quran.
Believers always have excuses on why they do things prohibited in their holy texts.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, islam prohibits looking at another man in a faggy way. That's far more than just anal sex.
Again, if you refuse to follow founder of your religion, then you aren't that religion. It's like homophobic jews and muslims that eat pork.
You know your god is made up when he like everything you like and hates everything you hate.
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Yes, of course religion is made up. I already said that religion is a cultural phenomenon and that "sacred texts" as cultural artefacts. No intelligent person would seriously believe otherwise. It is strange that you seem to have doubts.
Religious beliefs change every few decades, even more frequently now. Many religious beliefs that have been falsified by science have dropped out of fashion. Liberation theology, evangelical prosperity theology and the psychotic interpretations of the Quran that ISIS/DAESH (/CIA/MOSAD) have been pushing are new and have not existed previously in those religions.
I personally have no use for the religious beliefs of Christio-Islam and I suspect you don't either. The thing that is most strange about this thread is that the religious belief that is most obviously false, that is most obviously inconsistent, that is unique to only Protestant Christianity until very recently, that you yourself have given examples of as being false, is the belief you hold onto most strongly. That is that religions are defined by sacred texts.
Of course you are going to have a hard time holding onto that for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto etc. etc. etc. for what sacred text do you suggest defines them?
This topic basically says, "Being Gay is inconsistent with being Muslim because the Quran condemns anal sex between men" despite the fact that their are millions of religious gay muslims, that Islamic literature and art have many examples of homoeroticism and that until very very recently the Islamic world has been more tolerant of homosexual relationships than the West. These are the facts only contradicted by your deep devotion to the obviously false belief that people's religion is defined by what is written in books.
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All religion is made up. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.
How can you (generic) go against "the perfect word of god", as the quran claims to be? You have to be a pretty shitty believer in your god.
ISIS is using the quran's actual verses. "The religion of peace" is a lie when compared to what the quran actually says.
AGAIN, if you are willing to ignore "the perfect word" of your god, you are a shitty believer.
If you refuse to eat pork because the quran tells you not to, but take a dick up the ass or look at another man in a lustful way, you are a shitty muslim.
NOTE: I'm focusing on islam because that's the topic of the thread. However, all religions are the same; ie shite.
BTW; Buddhism does have written holy texts; https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/scriptures-texts
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Interesting. An Atheists making judgements about who is and who isn't a "shitty" Muslim based on his own religious beliefs about the importance of religious texts.
Yes, Buddhism has a huge volume of scriptures but none of them define Buddhism, though I guess you as a non-Buddhist are going to tell me as a Buddhist about my own religion. Not surprising since you seem to think yourself qualified to teach gay Muslims about Islam.
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627
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As long as you are not in a Muslim country with a threat of retribution who are you hurting?
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
And? Whoever said religious faith is rational and consistent? In fact the famous Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (the author of the five proofs of god that Richard Dawkins dismally failed to understand let alone refute in his God Delusion book) said that if people were forced to believe because of reason, then they would not be saved because they hadn't made the choice. An Islamic philosopher who's name escapes me at the moment said about the same thing.
If you believe in the kind of god Christio-Muslims believe in, it is not subject to reason. Strangely, many pseudo-atheists remain embedded in Western Christian culture and so believe that an idea based on facts and reason can itself be a truth. Presumably these ideas/truths float around in the universal supernatural mind (but don't mention the word "god").
Of course ideas only exist in one place that we know of in the entire universe; human minds. Only facts (primarily phenomenological facts) are truths.
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So you have made the entire point of atheists; religion is totally made up bullshit.
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