Gay and Muslim
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Of course someone can be gay and muslim, it depends on how the person involved understand religion and especially that God Loves people as we truly are. In my opinion, I think many muslim has distorted islam and changed the meaning of the quran. I also believe the quran has been modified by men because it has been millennium since it was written. It's better to focus about the fact judgment's God and forgiveness are fair, and muslim who will dictate behavior to other, they just fear what others may think and do not know what islam really is. It's between the believer and God, we are what we allow ourselves to be.
I'm an "extreme atheist asshole" in your eyes because I know the truth and accept it, as is.
You are a crappy muslim when you think that "the perfect word of god" can be interpreted by man in any way they want to suit their needs/whims. Then again, you are a good muslim in that you are willing to lie about your religion to make it seem better to non-believers, as commanded in the quran.
God doesn't exist.
They can't unless you ignore what their holy texts say about being gay.
Due to the left's racism of low expectations, muslims are wonderful people despite the way they treat/view gays.
"Islam is a religion of peace" is only true if you ignore all the violence it promotes, such as "kill all the infidels where ever you find them".
Sounds like we have an islamist.
LOL, you are so pathetic. You lie about what your holy texts say about homosexuality and I tell the truth, so you call me evil.
This is unacceptable to read so much hatred and the stigmatisation of muslims from someone who wants to force people to embrace his own beliefs, thinking every muslims are islamist. This is called islamophobia. Islam has so many different level of believers, it goes from progressism to extremism.We should rather be referring to Muslims, as groups of people, in order to avoid the essentialisation of Islam as a set of fixed ideas You are calling someone who argue with your "an islamist", a "pathetic person" while he just tried to argue peacefully. Are you aware of your behavior in this website ? In any other website you would have been banned because whatever what is your belief or ideology, you can't stigmatize people, insulting them while you seem to believe you are an innocent man "who knows the truth better than everyone". I guess you would rather spending your day bashing people on the web instead of having the wisdom to question your narcissism and your hateful mindset which you should do something about unless only lefties are capable of being "evil" according to you.
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I do love how lefties need to be liars to combat their enemies.
I never said that all muslims are islamists.
"Islamophobia" is just another word thrown around by the left and muslims to shut down any criticism of islam and/or muslims. According to liberals, stating that Mohamed married a 6yo and fucker her when she turned 9yo, is "islamophobia". Saying that slavery still exists in muslims countries, is "islamophobic". Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Clearly, islam is full of cherry pickers, who accept the bits they like and ignore the bits they don't like. So, it's just as bad as any other religion, despite the claims made in their holy text.
As usual, I have read the entire holy text, but "good" muslims want to tell me it says something completely different because they don't like all the bits in it. That is dishonesty in it's purist form. How is that any different to the "bad" muslims who ignore the bits they don't like?
Oh, I am well aware that I would be banned on most gay sites because I'm not blindly liberal. I'm not anti-semetic (nor pro), so I will get banned. I hate hoax hate crimes as much as I hate real hate crimes, so that would get me banned.
Please stop hiding behind politic when it's convenient for you. Do your psychological projection on others. Now, it's about me defending the fact you are bashing everyone without even being conscious of your own behavior, which you would be banned because you are not even respecting the rules, you are enjoying your admin status for you own benefit, far-right way of thinking ! It's wrong to call people islamist when they peacefully try to argue that everything is not black and white. It's wrong to distort the meaning of words like "fascism" because deep inside you, you probably know you are the one concerned about it. Being a racist doesn't prevent overcoming your own crap and learn about how we should embrace diversity. It's not about liberal or left stuff, how old are you please ? This is just a way to avoid the true meaning of your behaviour here and you shouldn't be allowed to exist here, at all. Are you aware you try to shape this website by your toxic hatred ? Islamophobia, anti-semitism, racism, xenophobia…, those terms have meaning you should not ignore, and instead of focusing yourself on judgng and insulting everyone here, you should just stop and have a little respect for others than yourself. I'am proud to be a "leftie" if that means I'm not like you, the product of so much hatred. Plus you keep on proving this almost everytime you share something here. You disgust me. Look at your face in the mirror, what is your purpose in this life except being such a hateful man ? Never late to change. This is my last answer to you.
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You are comical.
From memory, the person i called an islamist tried to lie about what the quran said. He later admitted that its not what the quran said but what he wanted it to say.
Fascists use violence to get their way. They want to shut down free speech, not promote it. Sounds like modern liberals to me. Go back and read the threads here, conservatives denounced violence from both sides, but it took ages for any liberals to do the same and when they did it, they got crapped all over by their fellow liberals.
It's people like you that scream "fascist" at everyone you don't like, despite your own side being the true fascists.
Islam isnt a race, despite what liberals say. In the UK, one of the more famous muslims is a fat white ginger guy. Sinead OConnor is a muslim, so is Tony Blair's sister in-law. Lots of blacks and whites are muslims, as well as far east asians.
You are butt hurt because I say that being gay is against "the perfect word of god", according to what the quran says.
You refuse to explain how some muslims are "good" while others are "evil" when both cherry pick the bits they like from "the perfect word of god".
You claim Im the evil one, while your side smashes people over the head with bike locks, set occupied buildings on fire, torch an immigrant muslim's limo on fire that he used for work, smash shop windows, beat up elderly people and disabled people. You shout shit like "fuck your laws" while you commit crimes. Your side screams "NGGR" and other nasty names at black people that refuse to bow down to you. You scummy ass clowns support vile pieces of garbage like Jonathan "jessica" Yuniv, while hating on real trans-people like Blair White. Yuniv was is a massive racist and was found to have brought his discrimination cases against minority women, as well as his lovely social media posts, but you people kept licking his ass and defending him/her/it. You people believe that CIS white little fag boys can tell trans-people what they should believe and feel.
Your answer is nonsense. Madness, stigmatisation and racism is your way, may it be. But accept the fact you are submerging this website by your hatred and every other admin or moderator should ban you for spreading hate speeches for years. You are not above the laws.
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BTW, don't be making other threads about this topic. Keep it here.
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It would be nice to see a discussion about what it's like to be Gay and Muslim rather than people who aren't Muslim yelling at one another.
I'm Jewish and pretty religious. I'm also strongly identified as Queer. (It seems like being Gay involves a lot of working out, buying clothes and listening to banal movies.) There are Jewish people who are pretty homophobic. There are Jewish people who are very supportive of same-sex rights. I think the majority don't give a rat's ass.
I do interfaith work with Progressive Muslims. Some have to deal with a shitload of sexism and homophobia in the Muslim community. Some have to deal with racism, hatred of immigrants, and hatred of Muslims. Most have to deal with both.
Myself, being from North African (Tunisian) Jewish descent get the ironic situation that sometimes people yell things at me because they think I'm Jewish and sometimes yell things at me because they think I'm Muslim. There's not a difference from my experience.
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I'm amazed by the level of ignorance in this thread. It's hard to know where to start. Sadly a lot of Americans are heavily influenced by propaganda in that country. First let me say that I was born a Hindu but I am now a Zen Buddhist. Although my main tertiary education is in Mathematics, Computer Science (and I am now studying for a PhD in that field), I took several subjects in religion at University. So here are some facts:
1. the word "homosexuality" first appeared in print in Austria in the late 1800's. The concept of sexuality (an innate subconscious sexual attraction) is modern: the product of modern psychological understanding and the theory of the subconscious mind. There is no reference to homosexuality in the Quran. There is no reference to homosexuality in the Bible. The first translation of the Bible that included the word "homosexual" was in 1941. This translates sexual acts as sexuality which is clearly an (probably intentional) error by modern homophobes.
2. When someone quotes "Kill the infidels wherever you find them" (post number two), you know you are dealing with someone completely brainwashed by the lies and distortions of the US far right propaganda machine. The "Infidels" in that verse refers specifically to the people of Mecca who were persecuting the Muslims in the early days of Islam as is very clear by the wider context. Islam in fact is the only world religion that specifically recognises other religions (Judaism and Christianity aka the "people of the book") as valid.
3. "People like to cherry pick from their religion" from some other post. Religion is defined by what the people who identify as members of that religion actually believe and actually do. It is not defined by what is written in books or what religious leaders say. In Christianity, there is the Catholic/Protestant polemic where the reformation attempted to claim that the literal interpretation of the Bible was more important than the traditions and beliefs of the Christian community. This ONLY applies to Christianity. Until only very recently (late 19th century under the influence of Christian missionaries), this was completely alien to Islam and remains alien to all of the other world religions. It is the weirdest thing you will ever read on social media where Christian (influenced) people try to tell Muslims what they believe by quoting the Quran and Hadiths at them. The vast majority of Muslims have never read the Quran and certainly not the Hadiths. Religion is learned within families and social groups, not from reading a book and very little from listening to religious teachers.
In my experience, growing up in Mysore and Bangalore in India and now living in Australia, Muslim families are more tolerant and understanding of their gay sons than most other families. In the same-sex marriage vote in Australia recently, surveys showed that the percentage vote in favour in Muslim communities was lower than the community in general, but higher than in evangelical Christians or even in the Chinese community.
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You really need to educate yourself with some academic sources, not web sites like "religion of peace" FFS. The Islamic world has a large body of homoerotic literature and art. Homosexual sex was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including the whole of the Middle-East) in the mid-19th Century, long before it was legalised in the West. European homosexual men fled to Islamic Morroco, Greece (under Ottoman rule) etc. to flee persecution at home. Iran had a royal gay wedding in the 1970's. Homosexual sex was only made illegal in Iran in 1979 and in Saudi Arabia (in imitation) in 1980, both for political reasons, not religious. Islamic history has stories of several rulers who had sexual relationships with other men, for example several of the Caliphs of Cordoba and Babur, the founder or the Mughal Empire in India.
Yes, of course homosexuality existed before it was understood by modern psychology but the concept of an innate subconscious behavioural preference did not. The concept did not exist and there was no word for it. Yes, men have been having sex with men for as long as there have been men. Formal sexual relationships between men and men or men and adolescents existed in many cultures including Ancient Greece and Rome but it was not understood in the way that we do now.
The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
1. The majority of homosexuals are women.
2. There are many homosexual men who do not or have not yet had sex with another man.
3. Surveys show that a small proportion of heterosexual men have sex with other men and given the small proportion of men who are homosexual, the number of heterosexual men who have sex with other men actually outnumbers the total number of homosexual who have sex with men.So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
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The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
That is the complete opposite of your previous claim.
I used that site because it was quick and easy. If you claim that they are lying about the quotes from the quran, then it's up to you to prove it.
So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
Are you seriously gonna try to pull that crap?
Looking at another man in a faggy way is enough to get you punished. I know, I know, your rebuttal is that "in a faggy way" wasn't a term in use in the 7th century.
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Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups. It is NOT defined by what is written in religious texts. Religious texts are cultural artefacts. They (and their interpretation) are the product of religion, not the other way around.
You don't see the irony of you, an atheist, telling Muslims how they should interpret their religious texts?
You often see the argument on social media:
Christian: Quote from Proverbs, quote from Genesis, quote from Job, quote from Samuel.
Atheist: But the old testament also says your should not cut your hair and not wear clothes made from more than one kind of thread.
Christian: Well Jesus came to give us a new covenant. The Old Testament isn't relevant anymore.
Atheist: But you were just quoting from the Old Testament!
Christian: Ummmmm.
Both sides in this discussion have got it wrong. Christianity is NOT defined by the Bible. It has not been learnt by reading the Bible. It has been learnt within a family and a social group (the church). The problem in Christianity (and Christian influenced culture including the atheists) that because of the reformation, people think that a religion IS defined by a text, creating this cognitive confusion.
This is even less true of Islam and other religions. For most of the history of Islam (and of Christianity), the Quran and the Bible were not even translated into languages that people could understand.
I know many gay Muslims, mainly from India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. I know the Middle-East is different, but most Muslims don't live in the Middle-East. They live in South and South-East Asia. I have seen two gay men dressed in Desi drag (Saris, Indian Jewellery, wigs, makeup) kneeling on floor doing their prayers before going out to the Taxi Club in Sydney to pick up Lebanese men (who apparently like that kind of thing).
I have been in a gay night club in Dacca during Ramadan where they have suddenly turned off the very loud music because of the last call to prayer and then a lot of the men there knelt down to pray.
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You are still obsessed with the protestant Christian notion that religions are defined by "Holy Texts".
You do realise that Christianity existed before the New Testament did?
You observe that Christians "Cherry Pick" from the OT and the NT and Muslims basically ignore the Quran, but you don't get that YOUR understanding of the relationship between religion and "holy texts" is wrong, not their's?
As I said earlier, one of the weirdest things you find on social media is "atheists" insisting that Christians and Muslims be religious fundamentalists. In other words, atheists who have a purely fundamentalist (mis-)understanding of Religion.
At most, a literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible) only condemns anal sex between men. However:
1. Girls are publicly caned in Malaysia for kissing in public (not men and not having anal sex).
2. Men are arrested and imprisoned in Egypt for dancing together at a party on a boat (not having anal sex).
3. A boy is expelled from school in the USA for wanting to bring his boyfriend to the school prom (not wanting to have anal with his boyfriend at the school prom).
4. A B&B in the USA refuses to honour a booking made by two men (to stay in a room, not a booking to have anal sex) because it is against their "Christian Values".If religion is based on "holy texts" as you insist, how do you explain this discrepancy?
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Yes, of course religion is made up. I already said that religion is a cultural phenomenon and that "sacred texts" as cultural artefacts. No intelligent person would seriously believe otherwise. It is strange that you seem to have doubts.
Religious beliefs change every few decades, even more frequently now. Many religious beliefs that have been falsified by science have dropped out of fashion. Liberation theology, evangelical prosperity theology and the psychotic interpretations of the Quran that ISIS/DAESH (/CIA/MOSAD) have been pushing are new and have not existed previously in those religions.
I personally have no use for the religious beliefs of Christio-Islam and I suspect you don't either. The thing that is most strange about this thread is that the religious belief that is most obviously false, that is most obviously inconsistent, that is unique to only Protestant Christianity until very recently, that you yourself have given examples of as being false, is the belief you hold onto most strongly. That is that religions are defined by sacred texts.
Of course you are going to have a hard time holding onto that for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto etc. etc. etc. for what sacred text do you suggest defines them?
This topic basically says, "Being Gay is inconsistent with being Muslim because the Quran condemns anal sex between men" despite the fact that their are millions of religious gay muslims, that Islamic literature and art have many examples of homoeroticism and that until very very recently the Islamic world has been more tolerant of homosexual relationships than the West. These are the facts only contradicted by your deep devotion to the obviously false belief that people's religion is defined by what is written in books.
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Interesting. An Atheists making judgements about who is and who isn't a "shitty" Muslim based on his own religious beliefs about the importance of religious texts.
Yes, Buddhism has a huge volume of scriptures but none of them define Buddhism, though I guess you as a non-Buddhist are going to tell me as a Buddhist about my own religion. Not surprising since you seem to think yourself qualified to teach gay Muslims about Islam.
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627
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As long as you are not in a Muslim country with a threat of retribution who are you hurting?
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
And? Whoever said religious faith is rational and consistent? In fact the famous Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (the author of the five proofs of god that Richard Dawkins dismally failed to understand let alone refute in his God Delusion book) said that if people were forced to believe because of reason, then they would not be saved because they hadn't made the choice. An Islamic philosopher who's name escapes me at the moment said about the same thing.
If you believe in the kind of god Christio-Muslims believe in, it is not subject to reason. Strangely, many pseudo-atheists remain embedded in Western Christian culture and so believe that an idea based on facts and reason can itself be a truth. Presumably these ideas/truths float around in the universal supernatural mind (but don't mention the word "god").
Of course ideas only exist in one place that we know of in the entire universe; human minds. Only facts (primarily phenomenological facts) are truths.
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Yes, religion is totally made up, obviously.
Not all religions are theistic, depend on a belief in the supernatural or require any beliefs at all (for example Zen Buddhism) so you can be religious and be an atheist.
Religion is essentially psychotherapy. Religious beliefs are psychotherapeutically useful fictions (useful bullshit). Their usefulness does not depend on them being logical, consistent or "true". Meditation, drugs or counselling by a psychologist are more effective.
Most of the literature, art, plays, movies ever made are depict something that is "made up" i.e. fictional. Many people are inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker and the concept of The Force but very few of them think that the story is non-fiction. Something doesn't have to be true to be useful. Not everything made up is bullshit.
The theories of science are similarly useful fictions. They are made up by scientists and mathematicians and tested against facts. If they explain existing facts then they are useful. If they predict future facts they are even more useful. If they are falsified by facts they are modified or discarded. They are never true.
I don't believe there is a god or there is a supernatural because those beliefs are useless to me. I have no problem if someone else finds those beliefs useful to them as long as they don't think the beliefs that they chose authorise them to affect the lives of people who haven't made the same choice. Historically there is only one religion that assumes that authorisation, and it isn't Islam.
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Today I went with some friends to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Festival Fair Day. In the section were religious groups have their stalls, I noticed the Sydney Queer Muslims stall.
I wasn't surprised that there was no long queue of Gay Christians and Atheists waiting to explain to them how they don't understand their own religion and that Gay Christians and Atheists know more about Islam that Gay Muslims do, because such people only exist in social media echo chambers, not in the real world.
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I know it is out of fashion in the new world of reactionary populist conservatives, but facts outweigh opinions. The social media mantra is "everyone has a right to their own opinions", but not all opinions have the same weight. Some opinions are supported by facts and some are falsified by them. Some opinions are wrong. People do not have a right to hold an opinion that is falsified by the facts.
The opinion that it is raining outside now does not have the same weight as the opinion that it isn't. Depending on the facts, one of these is wrong. The other is right. So let's weight the apparently majority opinion on this thread against some facts:
OPINION
“You can’t be gay and be a Muslim”.
FACTS
1. There are thousands, probably millions of gay Muslims. I know a few of them personally.
2. There are gay friendly mosques in France, Canada, USA, Australia etc..
3. Recently gay couples have been married in mosques.
4. Sydney has a “Queer Muslims” group. I saw their stall at the Mardi Gras fair day last weekend. I know many other countries have similar groups.
5. Until very recently (late 1970s), in Muslim countries that do not have a legacy of European colonial laws, homosexuality was not criminalised. Homosexuality was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including most of the Middle East) in the 19th century, long before many Western countries. In Iran it was never illegal until 1979. In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation, homosexuality has never been illegal until very recently where it was outlawed in two provinces for Muslim residents of those provinces only.
6. European gay men used to migrate to North Africa (mainly Morocco) and the Middle East or the Greek Islands under Ottoman rule to escape persecution and stigma. e.g. https://www.gaytor.rent/details.php?returnto=%2Fmytorrents.php&id=1d2499d5cba28cbab9f5b89e8d356c2c02d21710dd948dad
7. There are very many examples of explicit homoeroticism in Islamic Art and literature.
8. There are many examples of Islamic rulers who were homosexual. One of the rulers of Cordoba had a male harem. Another (maybe the same one) had his wife cut her hair and dress as a man to be more pleasing to him. The first Mughal emperor Babur wrote in his memoir of his infatuation with a young man in his youth and his refusal to sleep with the wives that had been arranged for him because of his love for the young man.
9. In the majority of countries (including Muslim countries) where homosexuality is still illegal, the laws derive from inherited colonial European criminal codes that conservative societies have in many cases failed to reform, not from Islamic law. e.g. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, India (until recently), and many African countries inherited anti-sodomy laws from the British criminal code.So clearly, the opinion “You can’t be gay and be a Muslim” is falsified by the facts. The opinion is wrong.
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"You can't be gay and Muslim" is a belief or an opinion.
"There are thousands of gay Muslims" is a fact.
Facts falsify opinions in the real world.
I wonder how many Americans when they hear Fox News weather forecast that it is not going to rain walk around outside soaked to the skin in the rain saying "It can't be raining! It can't be raining!".
Sane people when faced with facts that contradict their opinions realise that there is something wrong with their opinion.
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