Crisis in Europe - gays on danger?
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:afraid2: I find this all very disturbing indeed. Being from the USA I have grown to expect most European Countries to set the standard for the USA to aspire to duplicate here. :afraid2:
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Vraiment myrea?
Of course you report now a pain that not only you/me are feeling but, it could seem, many other ones.
Anyway, usually, when we individually feel a pain we go and see a doctor to explain our pain to, waiting for a diagnosis and, possibly, for a therapy.
Now it seems to me in your first post you already presented a diagnosis:the continuous miss management of the presidency
Unluckily though myrea, if you were my doctor and me your patient, I wouldn't be so sure about your diagnosis meaning.
Could you expand/explain?Symptoms more than a diagnosis that would be corruption and plain stupidity…
Well the actual president of the Portuguese republic... is also the man who destroyed the fishing, agriculture, and industry, he single handed close most of the estate factories creating unemployment, he was the one who signed also the quotes with the UE affairs about such matters, he was the one which doubled every year the spending within the government with houses, luxury cars and created the actual policy of funding to fondations and public private parceries, all of which amount to most of the debt we are owning to the markets, this man is also responsible for fraud in the stock markets, and for creating a system of corruption in which every major construction will have studies made by companies owned by a political partie... so what was next, to close hospitals because of the deficit and schools that were built, and to pay the debt with taxation which destroyed the inner market and economy in general, and what is next more austerity, which will only stabel the deficit while annahilating the lifes of most families, and mind you our taxes do not pay healthcare neither education at most, they are going directly to the debt that was created by this group of individuals and that still goes on as we speack. These are facts... and guess who is in charge of the finances, a goldman sachs idiot... the facts are Portugal is right now a bit of gay paradise, we can marry and wheels are turning towards the adoption by couples and unless you go far outside the capital most people wont bat a lash if you are gay, mind you that outside major cities it will be a bit scandalous ahaha, however the left wing government is destroying the chances of a recuperating economy, our military is divided, many want to overturn the government which already commited a lot of unconstitutional crimes even in the european law, but many are obeying to paychecks, the civil police force is already with the people, that is why they are using the army now. About a therapy well I doubt there will be a easy one, and I do not expect it from users, my only concern is to make persons aware of what is happening, and I hope greek users could share too what is really going on.
BTW our prime minister Passos Coelho and his later were puppets, we are talking about a government in which many have scandals going on about their college/university degrees which were never finished or bought with silence, people with less than 2 years of management skill in friends companies, people which at 40's never had to work and have drug related scandals and corruption crimes at court... so yes you might see why I'm ranting about it because I and many europeans feel screwed about how the future will be.
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Ok myrea while it seems corruption and that form of stupidity we could name misgovernmment are never advisable cause they subtract resources to other better or honest activities, we could deem them as causes of the present difficulties if and only if we could demonstrate that in the years when Portugal and Spain grew more than any other European country (Germany and France included) the corruption didn't exist or existed there to a minor extent. We could also wonder if countries like China which actually show a huge economical growth are exempt from corruptive phenomena.
If we couldn't demonstrate that it could be advisable to goto look for other causes don't you think? -
:afraid2: I find this all very disturbing indeed. Being from the USA I have grown to expect most European Countries to set the standard for the USA to aspire to duplicate here. :afraid2:
It depends on what exactly you'd like to duplicate my dear bears
Sure there are things concerning some aspects of the welfare which have been included in the Obama's program.
A big problem for a leftist president anyway stood in that diagram I had answered to you with in the other post :blink: -
Ok myrea while it seems corruption and that form of stupidity we could name misgovernmment are never advisable cause they subtract resources to other better or honest activities, we could deem them as causes of the present difficulties if and only if we could demonstrate that in the years when Portugal and Spain grew more than any other European country (Germany and France included) the corruption didn't exist or existed there to a minor extent. We could also wonder if countries like China which actually show a huge economical growth are exempt from corruptive phenomena.
If we couldn't demonstrate that it could be advisable to goto look for other causes don't you think?True and false there is no exact link between corruption and growth, some corruption works in benefit of the country, those periods of growth occur during the marcelist dictatorship, and the starts of the 3rd republic we're talking specifically about one country and not generalising, the right now growth is mainly because those numbers come with making the country poor and unemployed and selling our resources, gold and patrimony, however if you make a graphic with the individuals mentioned and picks of debt they match perfectly, has I mentioned they doubled the expense every year, the Presidency spends almost the triple than the Spanish crown… a far cry from what used to be in others hands.
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ihihihihihi
this answer has made me smile a little myr cause, would you believe it? A nearly exactly symmetrical claim has been raised against Italian presidency cause it spends almost the triple than the … English crown. Unbelievable these coincidencies aren't they? ;D Of course while a so said "spending review" has been invoked for all the so said Piigs countries and it could even prove to be of a certain usefulness, just to keep a medical metaphor if, as a doctor you wanted to treat a brain cancer patient's headache with aspirin you could even get a certain momentary success but if you pretended to treat her only with aspirin your act would be surely deemed as a medical malpractice. So, since you have kindly conceded me at least a half of the truth have you also other personal ideas about my part? -
ihihihihihi
this answer has made me smile a little myr cause, would you believe it? A nearly exactly symmetrical claim has been raised against Italian presidency cause it spends almost the triple than the … English crown. Unbelievable these coincidencies aren't they? ;D Of course while a so said "spending review" has been invoked for all the so said Piigs countries and it could even prove to be of a certain usefulness, just to keep a medical metaphor if, as a doctor you wanted to treat a brain cancer patient's headache with aspirin you could even get a certain momentary success but if you pretended to treat her only with aspirin your act would be surely deemed as a medical malpractice. So, since you have kindly conceded me at least a half of the truth have you also other personal ideas about my part? Certainly you can justapose the info however what is your point that all the piigs had that in the desease menu it's far from the case, Portugal Ireland IceLand Greece Cyprus Italy Spain (and Belgium and Hungary) had different realities so to invoque a symmetry is a bit off, there are relationships actually even France and the Uk feel it severely… and I mentioned it was symptoms not the diagnostic, our biggest problem is the government inability and lack of competence it made the wrong decisions in bad timing, being it when and where and how to inject money in the services, and how and how much loans to ask and what to sign with troika, we could had made a far easier deal but ulterior motives ro say the very least were overlapped much to the convenience of markets and banks, not to mention how rating agencies created terrorism against the country every time we actually grew they would cut the rating 1 point, earning billions at that with bets, but I am sure you know that system from the goldman sachs downfall.
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Certainly you can justapose the info however what is your point that all the piigs had that in the desease menu it's far from the case, Portugal Ireland IceLand Greece Cyprus Italy Spain (and Belgium and Hungary) had different realities so to invoque a symmetry is a bit off, there are relationships actually even France and the Uk feel it severely… and I mentioned it was symptoms not the diagnostic, our biggest problem is the government inability and lack of competence it made the wrong decisions in bad timing, being it when and where and how to inject money in the services, and how and how much loans to ask and what to sign with troika, we could had made a far easier deal but ulterior motives ro say the very least were overlapped much to the convenience of markets and banks, not to mention how rating agencies created terrorism against the country every time we actually grew they would cut the rating 1 point, earning billions at that with bets, but I am sure you know that system from the goldman sachs downfall.
Surely myr we could invoke many differences between the European countries hit by the crisis exactly like there are many differences between the the so said "core" ones (Gemany, Netherlands, Finland…) which have not been striken (yet). But if the crisis more or less, sooner or later hit the all of them, it could seem udeniable that we should have also a common denominator unifying all these differences. A well known one and very mentioned by the mainstream media at least for the Greece and Italy cases has been the relationship public indebtment/GDP. What do yo think about it?
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Surely myr we could invoke many differences between the European countries hit by the crisis exactly like there are many differences between the the so said "core" ones (Gemany, Netherlands, Finland…) which have not been striken (yet). But if the crisis more or less, sooner or later hit the all of them, it could seem udeniable that we should have also a common denominator unifying all these differences. A well known one and very mentioned by the mainstream media at least for the Greece and Italy cases has been the relationship public indebtment/GDP. What do yo think about it?
Finland is feeling the crisis too, going through it less affected but feeling it, however the nordics had the overall crisis come decade ago remenber? They are already a bit ahead. And surely there is many things that link all of the european crisis, the way Germany frozen the paycheck of workers is one, the way governments are way too linked with markets and less and less with their people other, about the public indebtment you would have to say what actually is in origin and the issue itself, there are some countries with greater public indebt, Iceland had bank indebt, and by public are we saying individuals people or the state indebt? Because USA top any other country in proportion and well they were not rank garbage were they, no because that would destroy most of the market… For me to say that you spent it now you pay it's ok, however who didi spent it and in what, and how were the payments arranged, this is what the portuguese public is furious about, did you know that while Spain used the money from the CEE to make plantations, our government spent it on jeeps... That they spent billions with the euro building soccer fields that were never since used? And let's address other problem, the euro as a coin was the stupidest idea ever... all economists were against it and advise otherwise than a stronger and a weaker coin would be advised. But this was not the issue I wanted to debate my fear is the extremist wave that is being politically created, and the possibility that gay rights might take a turn to the worse in Europe, we all know how the ex urss countries feel about that subject, hypocritally were does the gay porn come from?
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Olá, myrea! Ciao, agis!
It's obvious to anyone who has read your posts that you're both eloquent, and the opinions expressed by both of you have merits. This Board is indeed about Politics & Debate, and you're doing an excellent job at debating.
It seems to me, however, that all your recent posts are off topic. The original post was about the effect the European Crisis has on the rights and liberties of the gay community. You've turned it into a political debate about the crisis and its causes, and you've both strayed from the topic.
Just a friendly reminder.
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:true: Thank you for the observation :), has I lastly mentioned "But this was not the issue I wanted to debate my fear is the extremist wave that is being politically created, and the possibility that gay rights might take a turn to the worse in Europe,(…)" I'll try and see what I can find about recent issues in the subject, meanwhile I wonder if anyone from Polony, Estonia, Russia or other would like to speack of their experience and nowadays events.
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@Dax:
Olá, myrea! Ciao, agis!
It's obvious to anyone who has read your posts that you're both eloquent, and the opinions expressed by both of you have merits. This Board is indeed about Politics & Debate, and you're doing an excellent job at debating.
It seems to me, however, that all your recent posts are off topic. The original post was about the effect the European Crisis has on the rights and liberties of the gay community. You've turned it into a political debate about the crisis and its causes, and you've both strayed from the topic.
Just a friendly reminder.Very well my dear. For what concerns me then, in this case, the discussion ends here. Just a friendly reminder
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Any political changes across Europe which might result in a worsening of the rights we have fought so long to gain, is unwelcome, but I think the OP overstates the case with regard to other parts of Europe.
In my own country, England, public sentiment is usually far ahead of the political curve with regard to social issues like gay rights. The haters tend to be the usual neo-Nazi knuckledraggers and so-called Christians, but they are far outnumbered by decent people. The situation is far from perfect, but we are much luckier here than in most other countries - even in Europe. In England, a person's sexuality has become a non issue for the majority of people. I doubt if that is not also the case throughout most of Northern Europe.
What complicates the picture in places like Portugal and Greece, in a way which simply does not happen to the same extent here, is the unchecked power of the churches. They have far more sway in Portugal and Greece than they would ever get here. The main opposition in England (and the wider UK) to issues like gay marriage has come mainly from the Roman Catholic church. Two decades ago, it might have stood a realistic chance of having a major say on such matters as gay marriage, but a number of child sex abuse scandals has left the Catholic Church reeling and any cherished belief that it has moral authority any more, has simply evaporated.
It should also be remembered how right-wing parties and established churches seem to fit so well together in any part of the world you choose to look. Without the support of the Roman Catholic Church, the fascists in Germany and Italy would not have had such a rapid rise to power in the 1930s. Though a major factor was the fear that communism would spread throughout Europe from Russia and wipe out the church's power base, it cannot begin to excuse the church turning its gaze away from the horrors seen right across Europe between 1939 and 1945. I don't doubt it would do so again if it thought supporting right-wing parties would allow it to regain some of the power and authority it has lost.
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Any political changes across Europe which might result in a worsening of the rights we have fought so long to gain, is unwelcome, but I think the OP overstates the case with regard to other parts of Europe.
In my own country, England, public sentiment is usually far ahead of the political curve with regard to social issues like gay rights. The haters tend to be the usual neo-Nazi knuckledraggers and so-called Christians, but they are far outnumbered by decent people. The situation is far from perfect, but we are much luckier here than in most other countries - even in Europe. In England, a person's sexuality has become a non issue for the majority of people. I doubt if that is not also the case throughout most of Northern Europe.
What complicates the picture in places like Portugal and Greece, in a way which simply does not happen to the same extent here, is the unchecked power of the churches. They have far more sway in Portugal and Greece than they would ever get here. The main opposition in England (and the wider UK) to issues like gay marriage has come mainly from the Roman Catholic church. Two decades ago, it might have stood a realistic chance of having a major say on such matters as gay marriage, but a number of child sex abuse scandals has left the Catholic Church reeling and any cherished belief that it has moral authority any more, has simply evaporated.
It should also be remembered how right-wing parties and established churches seem to fit so well together in any part of the world you choose to look. Without the support of the Roman Catholic Church, the fascists in Germany and Italy would not have had such a rapid rise to power in the 1930s. Though a major factor was the fear that communism would spread throughout Europe from Russia and wipe out the church's power base, it cannot begin to excuse the church turning its gaze away from the horrors seen right across Europe between 1939 and 1945. I don't doubt it would do so again if it thought supporting right-wing parties would allow it to regain some of the power and authority it has lost.
It's a partially by me sharable analysis 200. Partially because while I don't want to belittle the responsiblities of the church(es) in your/my/our personal fate, in this case you overstimate their role imo. In Germany -which after all was the cradle of Protestantism much more than GB- for instance, the Roman Catholic Church role could be deemed as absolutely ambiguous and, believe it or not,in Italy too (!)…
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hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzZGujlKNk&feature=share
ah… you dunno Portuguese or Italian?
goto learn it right now...
RAUS!!!
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1st portuguese church has indeed too much media coverage, however the portuguese are not "lambs" some yes but not the majority, please do not portray them as such. I am far more worried about eastern europe than the north.
2nd Agis I can make a quick translation it's about after the fall of dictatorship how in less than 2 decades without a marshall plan, we alphabetised a country, we gave it sewers, and electricity, we went from a death rate at birth of 55,5 to 3,1 %, we went from 67 to 79 years of age had the average of life length. And also how money was also poorly spent, in car parks which have 41,3% of german made viatures, in electric car stations which were bought from the german which are yet to sell and deliver after all this years the electric cables to link to the viature batteries, a thousand millions of euros in submarines bought to the german, 675 millions to build soccer stadiums built in part by german companies… our trading every year gives 3 thousands millions of profit to germany, however in the last year we cut salaries, retirement pensions, subsidiary and social help, vacations, public organisms, health programs and education, we overtaxated our public services, grew our retirement age, taxes over salaries, consuption Iva, transportation , habitation, and anything that dared to move, we actually beat 2 records the greatest cut in spending and the greatest taxation in all the history of our democratic republic, however it seams that many still think we are party people always having fun, that we do not make effort or work hard enough, that we do not pay taxes... LET'S make this simple for you, we work 38,9 hours per week more than the german, we work untill we are 67 far more than the german, but should they not know that since we have 150 thousand people working there? We take 22 days of vacation to rest every year, less than the germans, we have less holidays than the german, the average wage/salary is 1171€ half than the germans, and we pay farrrrrr more taxes, and well yes we are the only 2 countries in europe to tax more than 50% of the weathy income of the rich, however you are rich in portugal over 80.000€ and in German over 500.000€, however we well doubled our imports of german products over the last 10 years, and our unemployment tripled, in 1990 germany unilateraly said that their external debt had expired, WE DID NOT PROTEST, in 2005 germany violated the limits in deficit and the EU forgave them of any sanctions...WE DID NOT PROTEST WE SUPPORTED THE DECISION.
This is a bit the very annoyed reponse the portuguese public is giving to Merkel the german chanceler after all her communications telling them to work or pay more taxes. -
1st portuguese church has indeed too much media coverage, however the portuguese are not "lambs" some yes but not the majority, please do not portray them as such. I am far more worried about eastern europe than the north.
2nd Agis I can make a quick translation it's about after the fall of dictatorship how in less than 2 decades without a marshall plan, we alphabetised a country, we gave it sewers, and electricity, we went from a death rate at birth of 55,5 to 3,1 %, we went from 67 to 79 years of age had the average of life length. And also how money was also poorly spent, in car parks which have 41,3% of german made viatures, in electric car stations which were bought from the german which are yet to sell and deliver after all this years the electric cables to link to the viature batteries, a thousand millions of euros in submarines bought to the german, 675 millions to build soccer stadiums built in part by german companies… our trading every year gives 3 thousands millions of profit to germany, however in the last year we cut salaries, retirement pensions, subsidiary and social help, vacations, public organisms, health programs and education, we overtaxated our public services, grew our retirement age, taxes over salaries, consuption Iva, transportation , habitation, and anything that dared to move, we actually beat 2 records the greatest cut in spending and the greatest taxation in all the history of our democratic republic, however it seams that many still think we are party people always having fun, that we do not make effort or work hard enough, that we do not pay taxes... LET'S make this simple for you, we work 38,9 hours per week more than the german, we work untill we are 67 far more than the german, but should they not know that since we have 150 thousand people working there? We take 22 days of vacation to rest every year, less than the germans, we have less holidays than the german, the average wage/salary is 1171€ half than the germans, and we pay farrrrrr more taxes, and well yes we are the only 2 countries in europe to tax more than 50% of the weathy income of the rich, however you are rich in portugal over 80.000€ and in German over 500.000€, however we well doubled our imports of german products over the last 10 years, and our unemployment tripled, in 1990 germany unilateraly said that their external debt had expired, WE DID NOT PROTEST, in 2005 germany violated the limits in deficit and the EU forgave them of any sanctions...WE DID NOT PROTEST WE SUPPORTED THE DECISION.
This is a bit the very annoyed reponse the portuguese public is giving to Merkel the german chanceler after all her communications telling them to work or pay more taxes.Thanks for the effort you have made myr especially for our English/German speaking friends since, being Italian, I could both understand the subtitles and get anyway the general sense of the speech as it often happens when I listen to Spanish or Portuguese (BTW the Genoan slang which is mine happens to be closer to Portuguese than Italian itself).
A thing I'd like to stress and underline of that tube thing is the frame in the image though.
There, in my opinion, they have caught the main point. Main cause the commercial unbalance doesn't concern Portugal only but, to different extents, many EU countries, Greece, mine and France included. Why exactly are you more worried about eastern Europe?
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Why exactly are you more worried about eastern Europe?
It was under Russian, orthodox, hard protestant or muslim influence, so their take on gays is not good for a start, the joining with the EU was good to them but with the crisis coming… remember that these were countries that vetoed gay parades and the revoque of gay crimes from the unicef and amnesty international, (human rights yeah yeah not for all) these countries decided that they would not sanction neither interfere with a country that killed gays... so I'm far more worried about gays living in that part of europe.
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Why exactly are you more worried about eastern Europe?
It was under Russian, orthodox, hard protestant or muslim influence, so their take on gays is not good for a start, the joining with the EU was good to them but with the crisis coming… remember that these were countries that vetoed gay parades and the revoque of gay crimes from the unicef and amnesty international, (human rights yeah yeah not for all) these countries decided that they would not sanction neither interfere with a country that killed gays... so I'm far more worried about gays living in that part of europe.
OK I see your point myr and I'm worried too for the eastern European countries but for a slightly different reason.
The bound of important countries like Poland, Serbia, Croatia or the Baltic countries to the euro cage is, in fact, not so tight yet and, even if
the crisis had to send you/me/us all into a spin, I don't think in those countries things would get worse than they actually are
and/or that we should see a tidal wave of homophobia coming and drowning us from there. If worst came to the worst the thing which seems more
likely to me is that they would lose the hope of an improvement. The tidal wave could more likely come instead from ourselves as you made us notice in your first post, from Greece, Italy or even sectors of the Iberian and French societies which still hold lower civilization profiles.
The joining of the Eastern countries with the EU so, would be only to be feared if they had to be admitted in the euro because this would worsen those already serious unbalances whose a possible gay problem would be only a consequence.
For the things I've written you might have already understood that, as a gay and an European citizen,the only thing I wish to your/my/ourselves is the breaking of the euro cage and an ordered return to the previous national currencies. -
The tidal wave could more likely come instead from ourselves as you made us notice in your first post, from Greece, Italy or even sectors of the Iberian and French societies which still hold lower civilization profiles.
The joining of the Eastern countries with the EU so, would be only to be feared if they had to be admitted in the euro because this would worsen those already serious unbalances whose a possible gay problem would be only a consequence.
For the things I've written you might have already understood that, as a gay and an European citizen,the only thing I wish to your/my/ourselves is the breaking of the euro cage and an ordered return to the previous national currencies.ALAS for reason and logic, however after the euro goes apart there will be incredibly hard times, I think France well it has it's idiots but they won't have an antigay wave, that's really our worst case scenario there , and I do not know the Italian psyche, as for Spain I want to hold them in better light… but that's me, Portugal however well they have all the bishops hate let me tell you that, and well... it being channeled threw deaths of transsexuals, and others that never get the hate crime label they do have... but in many (not the majority but a great part of the population) the last 2 deaths of transsexuals here was fuel to a real wave of disgust with they not being trialed for hate crimes, this 2 women were stoned, beaten and left to die by starvation... and the latest gay crime, the one in New York In which the younger lover tortured and mutilated his older partner fired up the country, religious thrying to ilibate the boy saying he was corrupted and did it in defense, trying to purify himself and yadda yadda yadda (inserte the amazingly ridiculous apologies here) and the voices of reason saying that it was cold premaditated murder and the boy should be confined there in prison... we are hoping and waiting that the USA law get this guy for what he did.
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