Incentive for uploaders?

ballard1

Hi underlvr,

nope, no problems. People are connecting quickly and all works fine.
I just notice it when I look at the stats of the torrent.
Once the file is seeded then of course my speed drops off dramatically because the faster seeders take over.

raphjd,

then all the uploaders in Europe who can't afford or don't have access to fast lines are in the same boat and I am sure they also would appreciate some kind of reward towards their ratio for their work.

cumeaternc

There are a couple of great guides in our support forum on how the manage torrent traffic effectively.

One thing worth noting is that people who are seeding a torrent with you are what keep this tracker alive. If you have to constantly seed all of your uploads to keep them active then that would limit you bandwidth and ability to share new great content.

I have a torrent upload on the tracker right now that was upped my me on August 20, 2008. I personally have not seed that torrent in over two years and yet there are still 4 or 5 members seeding it.

Now if you see that there are members seeding your torrent at 100% before you get a chance to fully upload it then they are doing what we call jump on seeding or overseeding. Let a mod know at once if that is the case and we will take care of it for you.

ballard1

Well, I am talking about the initial seeding only.
To illustrate my case see pic 1.

I have not even finished the upload and Mike 2009 (who is blessed with a fast line) already has pumped out 3.5Gb, giving him a ratio of over 5.0 on that file.

Pic 2 shows the stats after the upload is complete.
I have seeded the file and my upload ratio of course improved by 1.14 GB.
But that's nothing compared to Mike2099, who by now has uploaded 6.5 GB and has a ratio of over 7.0 on this file. Of course he's now there preferred seeder and I can drop out because I can't compete with this.

I don't know if Mike2009 is also actively participating by sharing his collection or if he's just leeching. He's just an example to illustrate my concern and it's in no way meant that he's not also sharing new material.

My only point is that people with fast lines NEVER have to worry about their ratios. They always have a ratio which allows them to download whatever they want without the need to also upload new material. I, and many others, HAVE TO provide new content all the time (for the benefit of ALL users) to keep a positive ratio.

Therefore my plea: reward people who provide new content because they invest a lot of time and work and help them achieving a better ratio. One possibility would be to double the uploaded data amount. E.g. in this case where I seeded a 1GB movie to give a 1GB credit towards the new material.

Such a solution would help me and others a lot and give us some breathing room. As much as I would love to download the occasional DVD-R… I can't do it because it would hit my ratio really hard.

B.

martini20

I can certainly sympathise with your plight ballard. Your name is one of the most recognisable uploaders, with varied content and plenty of pictures and description. Sad to see that your last 3 uploads only got you 35 bonus points. To be honest, because your profile isn't viewable and I know you upload a ton of stuff, I just assumed you would be rolling in seed bonuses with a healthy ratio.

ballard1

Thanks Martini,

Right now I have a ratio of 1.35 and 369 points. Nothing special. Yesterday I read comments from some people asking for 2.0 ratio for Power User status. I bet these are some of the guys with superfast connections i mentioned earlier. Just by downloading and not even seeding afterwards they achieve a super ratio.

Sure, seed bonuses help and without them I probably never would have made it to Power User status.

But I don't beg for them and have to hope that others are appreciating the new stuff and reward it.
I just wish I could get a 10MB line… and if it were available afford it

I think that right now the system is not very balanced. The worker bees get the crumbs and the queens (no pun intended) with good connections get fed the good ratios without doing anything. :blownose:

underlvr

@ballard1:

I just wish I could get a 10MB line… and if it were available afford it

I am supposed to have 18 MB/s service with Power Boost but the max I can upload is around 250 kb/s. I limit it to 200 kbps to keep everything running smoothly. That user had an upload speed of 1MB/s so his connection is surely more than 10MB/s. Unless he is the sole user on a dedicated line.

cumeaternc

I'm kindof split on this one and heres why:

When I upload, I understand one simple truth of torrent sharing and the internet….the second it hits another persons download queue I no longer "own" that copy of my upload. If he is faster to seed then I am it only benefits the other leechers. Why should I make them wait on me to get the data they desire?

On the uploader side I can see your frustration in not getting "as much" seeded traffic as another seeder on a torrent I uploaded. That's why I use initial seeding to get alot of the data out there as quickly as possible. I am only guaranteed the size of my torrent upload.

ballard1 I looked at your profile and I see that it is noted you have two internet connections. One to upload and one to download. The upload one is supposed to run at 100KB/s per another mods note. If this is not the case then we need to adjust your permissions on how you upload to make it fair.

My fear is that you may want to say you don't want to upload anymore and none of us want that. I can say the incentive you are suggesting could not happen for a very long time due to circumstances beyond our control.

There is no way to make it "fair" right now. Imagine if an uploader with a super fast line beat you to the punch on every torrent you wanted to upload AND he got double upload points for it. That hardly sounds fair to me either.

ballard1

cumeaternc,

I get your point and agree on the first part.

But: " Imagine if an uploader with a super fast line beat you to the punch on every torrent you wanted to upload AND he got double upload points for it. That hardly sounds fair to me either."

I think that's not a realistic scenario. Most of my uploads are older material and I am not afraid of somebody beating me. I don't see this as a competition.
I strongly believe that most uploaders aren't the ones with super fast lines. The guys with the super fast lines are just downloading and leaning back, doing nothing and seeing their ratios get better and better just because they have the fast lines. I can't prove it because I don't have the stats it but I highly suspect it.

Would I search for covers, descriptions, do screenshots and upload almost every day if I had a super fast line and therefore a guaranteed super ratio just by downloading? Probably not.
Don't get me wrong: I like to do it. It's fun and I love porn. But I would like to be able to download much more than I do and still keep a good ratio.

The point is: contributions to the site are "rewarded" only by the amount uploaded (and maybe voluntary seed bonuses by people who like the material). I think that should change. IMHO contributions have a higher value to the site and that should be considered in some form. I don't know how because I don't know the inner workings of the programming but I think it's something that should be figured out.

cumeaternc

We considered an uploader class that actually had some perks and privileges but as I stated before…due to circumstances beyond our control things will be pretty much the same in the immediate future at least. Please don't ask what I am referring to as it is a private matter for the staff.

Again ballard1 I see you have received quite a few sbp from grateful members and yet you have only given 15sbp to other hard working uploaders. To those uploaders that hardly seems fair but you know what…they are you sbp. You earned them and you should be free to do with them as you wish.

The scenario with a super fast uploader is just as feasible as a leecher with a 100M line everytime.

Your suggestion is a good one and it is being discussed elsewhere also. For now all I can say is :thankyou: for sharing. :urock:

Brandon

ballard1

"Again ballard1 I see you have received quite a few sbp from grateful members and yet you have only given 15sbp to other hard working uploaders."

Cheap shot Brandon! There was no need to make this personal.
But you are right of course. I am not very generous. All I can tell you: If I didn't need the points to get my ratio up I would definitely show my gratitude more often.

That's why I started this thread. I don't want to beg and/or rely on the generosity of others. I'd like to get a healthy ratio, which allows me to download more, through some other means. Then I can use my points to reward others for their work. Right now unfortunately it's not really a possibility.
Uploading new material alone doesn't help my ratio a lot. I think I've said what I wanted to say.

Keep up the good work.

Popper

@ballard1:

…
I have a 2MB line and can get upload speed between 100 and 120Kb.
...

That is the best upload for ADSL and most users in the country I life dream to get it. Quite a lot have to life with 512kb/s down, 128kb/s up, which means 16 KB/s up in the best case, many even can't get that. I life in Western Europe …

@ballard1:

…
Sure, I can upload a complete 1 GB movie and this helps my ratio but before I even have finished uploading there are downloaders with fast lines who have reached a ratio on my upload of 3.0 or even 6.0 before I even finish uploading.
Meaning: I receive 1GB towards my ratio for the movie, the other guy receives 3GB to 6GB towards his ratio but he didn't do anything at all except downloading and leaving his upload pipe open!
...

That is the ingenious thing of the bit torrent protocol, it mutuals all swarm member's upload capacity to make them getting pieces in parallel instead of needing to queue to the source.
It doesn't hurt more than marginal your uploaded data on a torrent you post having such peer as you show later in the swarm. Anyway assuming having not activated initial seeding, until the swarm tips over from only the original uploader being a seed to many users rapidly becoming a seed, the upload will be only around 1.3 times the file size (by my experience) or just nearly 1.0 only with initial seeding activated.

Rather than making the fast uploader being a "bad" guy, we should profit from them offering us their bandwidth. The way I personally see to achieve that is to lower the maximum ratio requirements.

If you look to the early part of a torrent's life, only the first half of the integration of users multiplied by upload rate ill gain, the other half will loose share ratio. (This is a simplification, I know). So in that part the average share ratio will be 0.5 … , which makes me to think that should be the maximum of the share ratio requirement.

All above are pure technical considerations and I can understand your frustration. The before mentioned "Uploader" user class is an attempt to at laest give a moral recognition to the new torrent contributors, but it is unfortunately not advancing

You may not believe, but often on my many uploads, I make initially just 1.05 ratio and get no seed bonus points gifted (which disappoints me most, because I use my SBP to re-distribute them to members in need and doing efforts to get out on their own, besides my French upload promotion programme, I need to earn SBP like other users), though technically my line is able to do 2 MBytes/s upload (actually 6, but limited by my settings to 2).

BTW: I get slowly my share ratio down

twinkletoes

@Uwe:

The before mentioned "Uploader" user class is an attempt to at least give a moral recognition to the new torrent contributors,
but it is unfortunately not advancing

FWIW, ballard1, I agree with everything you have said, but it has been my experience that proposed changes to this site,
if not rejected completely, proceed at a leaden pace
(and Uwe has just confirmed this)

Several other commentators have asked you if you are using the special "initial seeding" protocol, but I believe that you haven't answered this question.
It is crucial for you to avoid the "initial seeding" protocol since that ensures that you minimize your upload volume

Actually, there IS something you can do when you observe someone in the swarm behaving like "Mike2009"
Many (most?) bittorrent clients will allow you (without any GTRU Administrator's intervention) to "ban" a peer.
This would force your upload to pass through only the peers with a slow connection.

underlvr

@twinkletoes:

@Uwe:

The before mentioned "Uploader" user class is an attempt to at least give a moral recognition to the new torrent contributors,
but it is unfortunately not advancing

FWIW, ballard1, I agree with everything you have said, but it has been my experience that proposed changes to this site,
if not rejected completely, proceed at a leaden pace
(and Uwe has just confirmed this)

Several other commentators have asked you if you are using the special "initial seeding" protocol, but I believe that you haven't answered this question.
It is crucial for you to avoid the "initial seeding" protocol since that ensures that you minimize your upload volume

Actually, there IS something you can do when you observe someone in the swarm behaving like "Mike2009"
Many (most?) bittorrent clients will allow you (without any GTRU Administrator's intervention) to "ban" a peer.
This would force your upload to pass through only the peers with a slow connection.

But banning a peer from your client doesn't ban them from the swarm, unfortunately. He would still be able to download pieces from other users and then redistribute them. Also to reiterate, make sure that you have "initial seeding/superseeding" turned OFF.

P.S. The latest version of BitTorrent (7.2.1) doesn't seem to allow banning of peers or I can't seem to figure out how to do it, but I was able to do it in earlier versions.

twinkletoes

@underlvr:

But banning a peer from your client doesn't ban them from the swarm, unfortunately.
He would still be able to download pieces from other users and then redistribute them.

Yes, but he must download those pieces from peers with a slow connection.
I am not suggesting that this will have an enormous effect, just that it would help ballard1's problem.

pigtucket

I hate to appear insensitive, but I've had this happen to me on each torrent site I belong to. I've seen people have a ratio of 3.0 and higher before I get a 1.0 for that torrent. It's simply a matter of, they have a faster connection than you do. Then again, they may pay extra for having a faster connection. They should hardly be penalized for that. If your ISP offers you a faster connection and you don't choose to pay for it, that's simply a choice you make.

As for me, if I upload a torrent, I just leave it running for as long as possible until the number of seeds greatly outweighs the number of leeches, even to the point of leaving my PC running all night while I'm asleep. When I'm no longer providing a significant ratio of upload traffic, I kill it.

As for twinkletoes' suggestion of not using "initial seeding", I've never considered doing that. I guess my main goal is more oriented toward getting the most people a copy of the video in the quickest way possible. Then again, that may stem from my impatient side feeling what it's like to be waiting for a 100% copy.

Again, sorry to appear insensitive, but it's just a matter of life. Some people have better situations than us. Some not so. We just have to realize that and live with it.

That's my ten cents
My two cents is free
A nuisance. Who sent?
You sent for me?

I wonder if Eminem's really would melt in my mouth. :cheesy2:

pigtucket

ballard1

Hi pigtucket,

I think you misunderstood the case I was trying to make.
I never suggested that anybody should be penalized. To the contrary. I suggested a reward for uploaders!
As an uploader yourself: wouldn't you appreciate it when your efforts are rewarded by the administrators?
After all it's the uploaders who keep this site interesting and running.

underlvr

@pigtucket:

As for twinkletoes' suggestion of not using "initial seeding", I've never considered doing that. I guess my main goal is more oriented toward getting the most people a copy of the video in the quickest way possible. Then again, that may stem from my impatient side feeling what it's like to be waiting for a 100% copy.

pigtucket

Well, the problem I've noticed with initial seeding in BitTorrent (I assume the same with uTorrent) is that your overall upload speed wildly fluctuates. I usually have a steady 180-200 kbps but using initial seeding it will drop to 30-50 kbps for a few seconds then go back up; then in a few seconds will drop again. What this does is lower your overall volume during the same amount of time. It's been a long time since I used Azureus but I don't remember having that issue while superseeding with that client.

Ballard1: another thing to do, is go through your list of uploaded torrents periodically to see if any of them have a leecher with no seeder. One of the reasons that I do this is that, as far as I can tell, reseed requests NEVER go to the original uploader just to those on the snatch list. One more thing to do is check if any of your uploads are dead. These don't show up under the default browse/search. Seeding these dead torrents will enable them to be visible. I have torrents from nearly two years ago that are downloaded ever so often. If someone wants one of these torrents and you are the only seeder, then you will receive full credit. Of course, if they think that it is taking too long and press the reseed button, you might be overwhelmed with faster seeders.

Popper

@underlvr:

…
Ballard1: another thing to do, is go through your list of uploaded torrents periodically to see if any of them have a leecher with no seeder. One of the reasons that I do this is that, as far as I can tell, reseed requests NEVER go to the original uploader just to those on the snatch list. One more thing to do is check if any of your uploads are dead. These don't show up under the default browse/search. Seeding these dead torrents will enable them to be visible. I have torrents from nearly two years ago that are downloaded ever so often. If someone wants one of these torrents and you are the only seeder, then you will receive full credit. Of course, if they think that it is taking too long and press the reseed button, you might be overwhelmed with faster seeders.

That is about how I proceed, too.

Actually I start once a week my torrents and see the number of seeds and leecher, then stop those seed by others and stopping the others once seen seed successively over the week.

There are torrents I've uploaded on which I uploaded over the years more than 10 times their file size, some even above 30 … That is in the late phase of a torrent life.

cumeaternc

:inlove:@ballard1:

Cheap shot Brandon! There was no need to make this personal.

I am sorry if I offended you. :poorthing:

It's just that I have the same "speed" upload as you do and I do just fine ratio wise. The only thing I may do different is I don't rely solely on GTRU for my content. I do get plenty of stuff elsewhere. It would not be fair to users like mike2009 to ask him to slow down his sharing just because we are all not as fast as him.

Highspeed lines are not that expensive….anywhere in the world anymore. If you have tow internet lines like your profile says then drop them and get one good line.

MrMazda

Having a slower connection than you myself, I have resorted to a somewhat different tactic to keep my ratio up. I think this may work in your case since you have two connections. In my case, I can double my single connection, thereby effectively making it two connections effectively. I've managed to keep my ratio in good standing for some time by taking one computer on the one line and exclusively dedicating it to seeding my completed downloads, or in some cases, uploading a new torrent. The other machine, effectively on the "other" connection I use to download material, or in some cases, upload material when my other torrents are reaching my max cap of approximately 35kb/s.

Effectively, this provides me a way of being able to continue to have my ratio grow, even when I am not online. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I am merely throwing this concept out as an idea of a way to help. I've found when I leave all of my torrents seeding, between them all, I can manage to keep a steady speed going. For me, this is the major key to keeping my ratio up. The one thing to keep in mind is that it doesn't matter which torrent is being uploaded, just that any torrent is being uploaded. It creates a bit of a trade-off. Where I may not get as much upload credit on some torrents as I would like, by leaving them seeding gives me the opportunity to consistently crank out the maximum speed I can reach at all times, thereby driving my ratio up while doing nothing in return.

If you'd like, I can help you get setup with such a system so that you can take advantage of the fact that you have two connections. I think this would greatly help your ratio overall. If you wanted to take advantage of this system, I think it would be beneficial for you to upload new torrents from one connection, then move them to the "seed machine" after they've caught on and use that other connection for downloads. Once downloads are complete, the implication would be to copy or move them over to the "seed machine" to continue seeding them. Eventually, this process would get easier, the more torrents that you collect. Think of it as more of a traffic management system.

The only down side to this is that doing so in large amounts (i.e. saving ALL torrents) eventually does require a great deal of hard drive space, which I realize may be a limitation since even you have stated that not all users have the financial backing to be able to have access to the same resources. If this is simply not doable for you, I still have a few other "options" as it were that you may find useful. Each "option" is intended with the sole purpose of getting your ratio as high as possible as fast as possible, but each one has a different "down fall" as it were.