New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery
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@raphjd Aren't we talking about medieval times? Dark Ages? Roman times when they thought earth, air, fire & water were chemical elements?
You figure maybe they had beyond-3D imaging technology, that Church suppressed & we today still can't explain?
Again: dispute who it is all you want - but explain how it got there, at some point.
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I wasn't arguing how it was done, but rather just the points I brought up. We tend to believe people back then were too stupid to do things
Also, the shroud was originally written about around 800 AD, then disappeared until around 1400 AD. We have no idea if the original and the later one are the same.
If memory serves me right, there are 37 Jesus' foreskins in various churches. Some nun Saint has at least 12 fingers floating around. Forgeries are known to exist.
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@raphjd Mostly side issues.
The leg break question is interesting - I'm sure it's been accounted for - I'll have to look up how.
Forging (if that's right word) some foreskin or finger, is of course very easy (if that's right word).
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Controversy still goes. New study dates Shroud of Turin to time of Jesus.
https://www.newsweek.com/turin-shroud-study-claims-controversial-cloth-date-time-jesus-1942310
While the latest study does not discuss the question of whether or not the artifact was indeed Jesus' burial shroud, the authors did find that its age is roughly consistent with his time.
The study
...employed a novel method for dating ancient linen threads by inspecting their structural degradations using a technique known as Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering
& matched its state to linens known to be from Siege of Masada ie. that era.
Since the results do not agree with previous radiocarbon dating research, the authors said "a more accurate and systematic X-ray investigation of more samples taken from the Turin Shroud fabric would be mandatory to confirm the conclusions
To say again: Argue who it is, all you want.
But at some point, explain how it was done.
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@blablarg18 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
The hands and fingers don't look right to me.
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@lololulu19 Many distortions - remember, story is that cloth was wrapped, draped or folded on body.
It's not photography from 3 meters above, as we would understand it.
Doublings or bends in the cloth, could make distortions as weird super-3D negative image got radiated into cloth - somehow.
Another thing they found - other studies:
Blood specks have chemical markers of extreme stress - consistent with torture & crucifixion.
No medieval forger would think, "Oh I'd better use blood from real torture victim because in 21st century, chemistry science might get good enough to know."
Argue who it is - but, if forgery, explain how. Or if real, explain how.
Point is: it's inexplicable.
Even if you say "technology did it" - OK - whose technology? And how would it be around, in first century AD? Aliens? Wanna go there? Really?
Different thing - Pyramids got a possible solution, recently - Big stone blocks were floated up waterways.
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@blablarg18 I think the biggest problem with the shroud is that it has been altered. I think someone modified it to look more realistic, when in fact the opposite effect happened. It looks like someone added some cartoon like fingers, when in fact, no fingers should be visible.
My understanding is that the body of Jesus was put in a tomb, sealed with a giant round rock, and 3 days later the rock was moved, the tomb was open, and the body gone. I guess the shroud was left in the tomb but the body gone?
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@lololulu19 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
I think someone modified it to look more realistic
Oh no. If that were true, the skeptic-to-hater range of scientists would be ALL. OVER. IT.
For example, if it were painted or printed or treated even a little, by now they'd have found artifacts of brushstroke, ink, chemical etc. But they haven't.
People have tried to discredit it for centuries.
The only modifications were: Edges damaged in fire several hundred years ago, repaired by nuns.
& that causes problems with radiocarbon dating. If you sample from wrong part of shroud ie. edges, you will get date of the nuns' work - Of course.
@lololulu19 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
the shroud was left in the tomb but the body gone?
That's the story.
But even if it's wrong story ie. someone else's shroud - still, how was shroud's image done?
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Re: 3D image properties.... USA space bureau (NASA) made tool, to analyze images from their probes & land satellites, render them 3-D if possible.
Some smart person ran Shroud images through same tool, and got 3-D face below.
Our everyday photos lack the needed info, come out messy.
How did such info get imprinted on linen? & hundreds of years ago, likely 2000 years?
The point, again, is: It needs explanation. $1M prize money, awaits.
More advanced 3D render, probably by computer:
@raphjd As to leg breaks: Roman crucifixions did not always feature them, and John 19:33 says "they did not break his legs".
Romans only broke legs to hasten death. Victim would sag down, then asphyxiate faster. Romans only did it if victim took too long.
John 19:33 says, Romans who checked on Christ found him "already dead".
To see no leg breaks on Shroud, fits well.
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Somebody tried to AI-animate the image.
video - https://x.com/i/status/1873958029919687088
1 still image - below.
trigger warning: Whoever did the video, presents it as Christ.
I only wonder if it could have been. I'm ok if we keep things a bit archaeological, that is, how to explain the artifact? It's unexplained.
ps. Don't be put off, by the "Mediterranean-White" appearance.
At that point in history, 2000 years ago, Hebrews and Greeks had inter-bred somewhat for some 350 years - since Alexander.
Bible speaks of "Hellenistic Jews". They would be "mixed". Israelite input was Semitic / brown, while Greek input, at that time in history, was pretty Caucasian, or more blonde than you would picture today. Centuries later, Greeks became Mediterranean-brown.
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Interesting discussion.
Some bits new to me:
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Medieval artists always depicted Jesus as nailed through His hands. Today we know, Romans nailed victims through their wrists. Shroud has wrists.
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key specks of pollen & dirt have been located-dated to 1st century Jerusalem.
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Blood & dirt specks were deposited before the image. Again it fits narrative of a body that was entombed, later dissolved by some sort of radiation.
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the image is, again, "negative" (tho not 2-D photography; it's weirdly enhanced with foreshortening & depth info). For centuries, people never saw photo negatives. So they couldn't recognize this image. Only in late 1800s, as it was re-negatived or double-negatived by photography, did it leap out.
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Still unexplained.
Paolo Di Lazzaro, an Italian physicist and chief researcher at the ENEA Research Centre in Frascati in Italy, spent five years attempting to reproduce the body image seen on the Shroud of Turin.
Researchers fired intense bursts of ultraviolet light at clean linen fabric similar to the shroud, altering the chemical structure of the outer fibers and turning them faintly yellow.
Despite successfully creating small areas of shroud-like discoloration, the team found that recreating the full body image was beyond modern technology.
Their calculations showed that producing a life-sized image would require an enormous burst of ultraviolet energy delivered in an extremely short time, far more than current laser systems can generate.
it would take 34,000 billion watts of energy traveling in one 40th of a billionth of a second to change the chemical makeup of a fine linen shroud to leave that image. 'And he said, "We don't have that power on Earth.'"
Again: Argue over who it is. But explain how it was done. If it's high tech: How could that tech have existed in earlier centuries? Something is uncanny here.
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Not for nothing, but if you insist that God be PROVEN, then you don't have FAITH...
God - in all of the Abrahamic religions - doesn't demand that you prove his existence, or follow him, or believe in him, because he provably exists - God insists that you HAVE FAITH IN HIM.
The very definition of faith is the belief in something that cannot be proven.
No real follower of the Abrahamic God (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - in all their forms) has their FAITH challenged by science! If you ever DO prove, scientifically, that there is a God (or that Jesus was indeed, the Son of God) - then you will no longer have FAITH... it will be replaced by knowledge (the original sin?) ... and by that measure, by the teachings of your religions, you will be damned to hell.
NOTE: In ancient times it was considered BLASPHEMY to claim to have proof of God's existence, or even to SEEK such proof!
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@bi4smooth That's a side debate in theology but my main point is:
Scientific controversy continues to rage.
You can still dispute what this thing is...But...it needs further explanation & study.
Again - feel free to argue what you think it is
dispute WHO it is all you want - but explain [archaeologically] how [the artifact] got there, at some point.
No medieval forger would think, "Oh I'd better use blood from real torture victim because in 21st century, chemistry science might get good enough to know."
Argue who it is - but, if forgery, explain how. Or if real, explain how. Point is: it's inexplicable. Even if you say "technology did it" - OK - whose technology?
So I'm talking archaeology. Artifact exists. It's wildly anomalous, no one can explain it after centuries of study.
I could put thread in a "Science" section but I did not see one.
& artifact has a religious explanation which right now is weirdly as strong as any, or stronger..... so I put thread here.
The point, again, is: it needs explanation. $1M prize money, awaits.
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