National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer
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@raphjd There is no way to fix this. Buy Bitcoin!
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@raphjd said in National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer:
That's where I got my figure.
Being such a liberal, you clearly are ignoring the Dem controlled House.
Your beloved Dems thwarted Trump at every turn.
Three comments:
First, the "Epoch Times" is not reliable news. The article you cite states that they have inflated the real number, which they correctly cite as $28 trillion.Second, spending bills in the US have to pass both the House of Representatives and the Senate. The Republican-controlled Senate approved all of Mr Trump's extravagances.
Third, for the umpteenth time when you can't make a rational argument, you attack other posters. So I'll do the same: You are the problem. Your ignorance of facts is appalling. Your posts are worthless.
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@eobox91103 Nancy Pelosi passed the ENTIRE Trump agenda (including the wall) thru the Democratic controlled chamber.
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Can you imagine how stupid a President would have to be, with our soaring debt, to propose a $2 trillion infrastructure bill.....oops...
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@hubrys All of us who are homeowners know the perils of "deferred maintenance." When bridges carrying national highways literally collapse and fall into a river ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge ), it suggests that there's a backlog of work that needs to be done. The last several US presidents have made note of this, but nothing's happened.
Playing "catch-up" is going to be expensive for Americans, but at least it's spread out over 15 years. This is a different approach from the stimulus program placed after the 2008 "Great Recession," which cost about $800bn but happened rather quickly. It did seem successful at providing employment and doing some infrastructure repair.
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Americans are incredibly gullible... almost to the point of being stupid.
Does it seem like the Government is just printing more money? Really?
It should!
Because that's exactly what's happening! We're not "selling treasury bonds" to pay for COVID... we're just "printing money!!!" -- and we (Americans) can actually do this (and get away with it) because we're the "default" currency for the rest of the world (technically: the "reserve" currency).
The "concept" of US Government debt comes from a time when our currency and "money supply" were tied to "the Gold Standard" (and GOLD was the world's "Reserve Currency")... today, this ain't that! Back then, the world's economies were a "zero sum game" - for me to make more money, someone had to lose money - because there was a finite amount of gold to go around. There is no reason for that anymore - we can ALL get $1400 in cash, and ALL "win" -- without there being ANY losers, because we (technically, the US Treasury) can LITERALLY just print more money!
One of the first times we "dipped into" the idea of just pumping cash into the economy (with no real "debt" as a result) was the economic crisis that Obama inherited... only thing was, they were dumb enough to think that the "right way" to inject all that cash into the economy was to "give" it to the banks! After all, if you give THEM the money, they'll LEND IT!!! Right? That's what banks do? Lend money? (Edit: I should give credit where it is due: It was George W Bush's administration that thought up of the idea of "quantitative easing" and resolving the banking crisis with a cash injection - Obama inherited the solution! He just had to execute it, and he did that poorly... to be kind to him!)
Nope... and that's why the "economic recovery" under Obama was so unbearably slow... Banks propped up their balance sheets with that cash... bought back stock with that cash... paid HUGE bonuses to their executives with that cash... and loaned VERY LITTLE of that cash!
Trump and the Republicans were far smarter when it became clear that COVID was was CRUSHING our economy in 2020... f**k the banks, give the cash DIRECTLY to the American People! They'll do what the banks didn't: they'll SPEND IT!
Prudent people would pay off their debts (credit cards, back rent)... that's what the "professionals" (the banks) did last time.... but that's not American! No, we BOUGHT SHIT! And it WORKED!
The problem with that formula, though, is that when you put soo much (too much) cash into the economy, there is inflation... keep it up and you can ALSO get yourself back to the 1970's nightmare: stagflation (inflation with a stagnant economy!)
Long story short - we're not borrowing the $2T for COVID relief (or, the $3T for infrastructure, if that passes)... we're just "injecting it" into the economy... in layman's terms: we're just printing money!
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Sorry, I couldn't find any articles from Rachel Maddow on the subject for you. We know you would approve of any article from her, Joy Reid or CNN.
And again, you refuse to say that the Dems control the House, which Trump needed to pass any spending bills.
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@raphjd And you refuse to admit that MoscowMitch and his Senate approved everything.
Every few months I think I'll try engaging in a "Politics and Debate" topic, thinking perhaps that you've grown up. But no, instead of facts you resort to calling names, which is the last refuge of cowards. Even my 12-year-old knows better.
Go play in your sandbox and pretend that you're superior to everyone else...even though we all know better.
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LOL, you still refuse to admit that your beloved Dems controlled the House and passed those spending bills too.
You don't like the Epoch News article (it's not their figures) because the people who came up with those figures (again, not from Epoch News) rightly included Medicare and SSI theft that every President has done since Ike started the trend.
Trump's out of office and you still suffer from extreme TDS.
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@raphjd Jeez, you really need to get a clue.
OK: Democrats controlled the house from 2007 to 2011, and again from 2019 to the present. But your beloved Republicans controlled the House and the Senate from 2011 to 2019.
And Epoch News (and I use that last word with irony) is not absolved from quoting incorrect numbers just because they got them from another crapsheet. The "debt" reported by their source includes an estimate for payments due for Social Security and Medicare for many years into the future. They are not current "debts" of the US government. Perhaps checking the source was too much effort for you.
I'm not going to read any of your crap any more...it's like smearing feces in my eyes. You're lucky, I suppose, that you're a forum moderator...because if anyone else had that job, you'd be permanently banned from the site.
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It's not just many years into the future, but also the rampant theft from Medicare and SSI for the last 7 decades. Ike started the trend and most if not all Presidents after him also raided those accounts.
If those accounts had what the UK calls "triple locks" then they would be safe. Since they don't, we keep hearing how SSI won't be around much longer without a miracle, despite everyone paying into it.
I know I would be banned from most gay sites since I am not a liberal.
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@raphjd said in National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer:
It's not just many years into the future, but also the rampant theft from Medicare and SSI for the last 7 decades. Ike started the trend and most if not all Presidents after him also raided those accounts.
If those accounts had what the UK calls "triple locks" then they would be safe. Since they don't, we keep hearing how SSI won't be around much longer without a miracle, despite everyone paying into it.
I know I would be banned from most gay sites since I am not a liberal.
I can't argue that you're not a liberal - but I would argue that you're not a conservative, either!
- liberals are known for their pie-in-the-sky predictions (often based on the most favorable predictions all piled on top of each other)
- conservatives are known for their pragmatic, truth-based evaluations
And you, sir, have serious problems with the truth...
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I love when conservatives bitch about the debt, citing Medicare, but then conveniently forget that it was their boy, George W. Bush, that created the last, large entitlement program, Medicare Part D.
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@hubrys said in National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer:
I love when conservatives bitch about the debt, citing Medicare, but then conveniently forget that it was their boy, George W. Bush, that created the last, large entitlement program, Medicare Part D.
True Conservatives know that both "pure" Capitalism and "pure" Socialism are equally impossible and implausible. The key isn't blindly following one or the other... there are parts of our economy that are best-served by capitalism (e.g. most commerce), and others that are best served by socialism (e.g. basic healthcare).
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@raphjd said in National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer:
Ah, so I'm a liar. How nice of you.
Then again, you are a RINO swampie.
No, I said you had problems with the truth...
When you are deceived and then propagate that deception, it is not "truth"...
But to be a liar, you would have to KNOW what you said was untrue.
The fact that you're factually wrong does not make you a liar... it just makes you wrong. When you then refuse to acknowledge facts when they are presented, well... then, you have a problem with the truth!I would never presume to know whether you know that the disinformation you regurgitate from right-wing extremist media is false when you post it... so I would never presume to call you a liar... just wrong... and just (at least often) unwilling to accept when that is pointed out to you.
NOTE: I'm not talking philosophical differences here - I'm talking facts: like Trumps inauguration being the largest crowd ever, like Trump's election losses in 2018 being fake, like Trumps election loss in 2020 being "stolen"... and those are just the easy ones!
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It's only disinformation because you don't like what is being said.
You believe everything that CNN, Rachel Maddow, and Joy Reid pull out of their asses because they hate Trump nearly as much as you do. You don't care that they have been proven to be liars several times.
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@raphjd said in National Debt Exceeds $123 Trillion, or Nearly $800,000 per Taxpayer:
It's only disinformation because you don't like what is being said.
You believe everything that CNN, Rachel Maddow, and Joy Reid pull out of their asses because they hate Trump nearly as much as you do. You don't care that they have been proven to be liars several times.
There you go again with the inflammatory and incendiary ranting...
For something to be a lie, it doesn't just have to be wrong, the person stating it has to KNOW - right then and there - that it is wrong... AS they are saying it!
When I walk into the door of your home and smell the dinner in the oven, I can honestly, say "dinner smells wonderful"... when I later learn that dinner is going to be Swansons in the microwave, and that what I smelled was your neighbor's BBQ... I didn't lie! But I sure as hell was wrong!
I don't watch Rachel Maddow (or any other show on MSNBC) - any more than I watch the non-news shows on Fox News... I generally don't look to the "talking heads" to tell me what I should think.
I honestly don't know who Joy Reid is at all...
I happen to know about the "national debt" (and the paper-tiger that it is) because I studied it during my MBA education. Yes, I would say my professor was a liberal... no, I wouldn't say he was wrong (at least not about everything).... He had some ideas I thought were liberal (and wacky), but the majority of the class was about economic facts - and how to tell the fact from the opinion. Also, how to detect "spun" facts.
It was the 2nd time I'd heard the Mark Twain quote:
"There are 3 types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, & Statistics"
(Mind you, he didn't invent the phrase - but he did popularize it!) -
@bi4smooth I like the Swanson's dinner vs. BBQ image--thanks for sharing it.
The issue of lying vs. truth-telling gets muddled in political circles: The classical definition of "knowing something" is that one "knows" a proposition for which one has (1) justified, (2) true (3) belief. ("Belief" here means intellectual assent; it has nothing to do with religion.) All three ingredients need to be present for one to know something in the strict classical sense. I could say, "It is sunny in Paris," which might be true, and I might believe it, but I haven't looked it up and thus I have no justification for believing it...thus I don't "know" that it's sunny in Paris. Conversely, your BBQ-smeller has justification for believing that "dinner smells wonderful," but it happens to be false, and thus strictly speaking he doesn't "know" the proposition that he has made...but as you note, he's not a liar.
The question arises whether someone (such as a politician) is lying if they make statements about which they have no justification. They might not know that they are false, but they have no justification to believe that they're true. Such a thing might not count as a lie, but it's still not responsible to make the assertion. Most sources assert that Mr Trump lied 30,000+ times whilst in office, but there's likely a chunk of those in which he wasn't willfully being deceptive--he just didn't know what he was talking about and said something that was politically expedient. I'm not apologising for him, just focusing the terminology. I think government officials--especially a head of state--have a responsibility to have justification for what they say. Speculating that coronavirus would simply "go away" or that it could be cured by injecting bleach is irresponsible because such statements had no justification--and also happened to be be demonstrably false.
People sometimes refer to Mr Trump's continued assertion that he actually won the 2020 election as "the Big Lie." I think that's only a lie if he knows that it's false, and it's hard to assess what's actually going on inside his dysfunctional toddler's brain. It's possible that he believes it, but since it's (a) not true and (b) he has no justification for it, he cannot be said to "know" that he won the election. But he is certainly well-versed in the Goebbel's Principle (named for Hitler's propaganda minister) that says, I think accurately, that if you tell people something enough times, be it true or false, many will believe it.
A quick search shows that "Joy Reid" is a talk/news host on the cable network MSNBC. I don't watch her programme as I don't have cable TV, and I don't know if that channel is even offered where I live. (I get television the old-fashioned way--with an antenna--and it's free!)
Perhaps I'll prepare some BBQ this evening...
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Wow - an intellectual, factual, analytical response.
What happened to the Universe? Did someone (as they clearly did in 2016) figure out the why's and wherefore's and, thusly, an infinitely more complex Universe (one in which Donald Trump - yeah, THAT Donald Trump - is actually, literally, elected President... of the United States!) was created?
(Source)
“There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened.”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
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