Only CULTURALLY COMPETENT users should remove torrents from Themed Movies / TV

A Former User

In some parts of the world, it can be offensive to call someone out on any form of competency. Perhaps if one must, maybe a better phrase could be something like Culturally Aware.

One picture that comes to mind when thinking about subtlety in this thread, is the artwork of a jug that has a pair of lovers seen by adults, but kids see 9 dolphins.

scratcher71

Rocketman was one of my favorite films, especially how heartbreaking it was when elton broke up with reid.

cinemacapman

@bearbearbear:

Now, I will say I don't think it's important that Hitchcock films are available on gay torrent sites because they are so widely available elsewhere. What is important to have on gay torrent sites is gay-themed films with little distribution and availability elsewhere. If someone wants to torrent Rope (or RuPaul's Drag Race, for that matter), there are dozens of torrent sites to choose from.

I beg to differ a bit…the reason I come to a gay-themed torrent site is precisely so I don't have to go elsewhere for movies and shows featuring gay themes or characters...this way, everything is in one place. Regardless whether any of the downloads can be found elsewhere. That's the entire point of having gay themed torrent sites (of which I belong to four, including this one).

cinemacapman

@bc22:

In some parts of the world, it can be offensive to call someone out on any form of competency. Perhaps if one must, maybe a better phrase could be something like Culturally Aware.

That's an excellent point…a much better term.

bearbearbear

@cinemacapman:

@bearbearbear:

Now, I will say I don't think it's important that Hitchcock films are available on gay torrent sites because they are so widely available elsewhere. What is important to have on gay torrent sites is gay-themed films with little distribution and availability elsewhere. If someone wants to torrent Rope (or RuPaul's Drag Race, for that matter), there are dozens of torrent sites to choose from.

I beg to differ a bit…the reason I come to a gay-themed torrent site is precisely so I don't have to go elsewhere for movies and shows featuring gay themes or characters...this way, everything is in one place. Regardless whether any of the downloads can be found elsewhere. That's the entire point of having gay themed torrent sites (of which I belong to four, including this one).

In one case, it's a matter of convenience but in the other case, it's a matter of available or not available. Certainly with the examples I gave it's a matter of convenience, not importance.

urx585

This thread is puttering out, but I want to thank everyone who contributed. I admit I started this thread in a fit of pique over the idea that THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG wasn't gay enough for this site, especially since we have so many French members… and anger is not a good starting point. But thanks to this discussion, I've learned a lot about how to make these suggestions most effectively. At some point, I'll re-write these proposals to be as simple, easy to understand, and compelling as possible, then post a new thread.

There are a few loose ends I'd like to tie up. I'd appreciate your thoughts on these:

We should use the torrent comment box to discuss these things.

The same movie can be posted many times, so a single forum topic would be much easier to read and contribute to than hunting for all the torrents of that movie, living and dead, and reading each set of comments separately.

Posters should describe these things better.

Amen, brethren. But they don't, and this isn't going to change. I used to always comment "Are there subtitles?" whenever someone posted a non-English language film, if they didn't indicate it in the description. I'd get a reply less than half of the time. I've pretty much given up. When other users post questions like this, I sometimes grab the movie then answer them myself, knowing that the Uploader will never respond.

The rules for torrent descriptions used to be much stricter, too. As this site has allowed more poorly-described torrents, we've seen a tremendous increase in the quantity of torrents. It's much easier for people to upload, especially if they have very little English, so they do it more often. We're getting much more awesome content, but the price we pay is poor descriptions. I don't know any way around this, except to work together as a community to improve the descriptions that uploaders can't or won't add themselves.

In general, I would always prefer having a poorly-described ultra-rare movie versus not having anything at all. Do you disagree?

We can use google searches to figure out if a movie is gay enough for this site.

Couple of issues with this. I've been searching for descriptions of weird / rare / foreign films for a long time, and for many of them, there is not much English language information on the web. There may be articles in the original language, but they can be very difficult to find (you have to search with the movie's original title in the original script, not the westernized title in Roman characters) and they are not in English (and google translate only works with major language groups.) So there are going to be lots of rare films that really are gay enough to belong here, but google won't tell us. But... we have so many users from such diverse backgrounds! Tapping into that resource will give us all the information we need.

Second, the LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD (DIE HARD 4) problem. The director made comments similar to those from the directors of SYNONYMES and THE LIGHTHOUSE. The director told Bruce and Justin to treat each other as romantic interests. It's really obvious when you watch the film, they have great chemistry and they get a daddy/twink thing going. Justin's character's sexual orientation is never defined. By the standards given in previous posts on this thread, google says it belongs here. Do you agree? (I suspect most members don't think it's gay enough, and having a forum topic for that movie would be the perfect place to build a consensus and make a shared decision.)

Similarly, while I agree that THE COMMISH (yuck) doesn't belong here, if you google "gay themes in the commish", in the first five results is a Wikipedia entry that says: "List of 1990s American television episodes with LGBT themes". So according to google/wikipedia, THE COMMISH is LGBT themed, and belongs here. If we had a forum to discuss this, raphjd and myself could argue against that.

Doing google searches and reading articles about gay themes in a movie is faster than creating a forum and putting a link to that forum in the comments.

Research takes time. Creating a forum topic and adding a generic comment and link would take less than a minute. Then, members can do their own searches, and post the links to the articles in the forum, if anyone wants to spend the extra time reading them.

Google can help with the gray areas.

Like: what separates a major character from a minor one, do repressed/in-denial characters count as gay, what specific quantity of gay content is necessary to differentiate between gay-interest (not a real word) and gay-themed, etc.

raphjd is the only contributor who even tried to give some hard answers to these questions. Quote:

A single gay character on screen for 15 seconds doesn't count.
A group of gays on screen for 30 seconds doesn't count.

I agree entirely, and so will everyone else, because these are obvious. Unfortunately, these lower-bound limits do not give us any information about the upper bound. For instance, a gay character that is on screen for 16 seconds, or a group of gays on screen for 31 seconds, probably doesn't count, either.

Gray areas are real. Gray areas are a matter of interpretation. Crowd-sourcing works. The opinion of many GTRU users will be superior to the opinion of any one user.

When a film that is in one or more of these gray areas is posted, I think we should discuss it, reach some sort of consensus, then make a keep/delete decision as a group.

Clips instead of whole works.

Clips take time to make, and many users don't know how to make them. They are by nature incomplete, which is unsatisfying. Also, if nobody ever posts the whole movie, nobody will be able to make clips from it!

Asking users to clip out the sexy parts of interesting movies is asking them to do work. People are lazy, and don't like to work. It's easier to post the whole thing, unaltered. Also, I prefer whole movies. I'm not the only one.

We should be getting movies from other torrent sites.

and

8 ) The site owner doesn't want more torrents.

I don't believe I've ever interacted with the GTRU site owner(s), but I have worked with lots of corporate site owners. They want:

More and better content,
which attracts more users,
which creates more traffic,
which leads to more revenue (via donations, subscriptions, or advertisements)

My proposals would increase the amount of interesting content in four ways:

Rare and/or obscure and/or non-English language films with that are significant to the gay community will be much less likely to be deleted, so more users will be able to find them.
Users who like straight porn, and want to see more straight porn with better lighting and longer scripts (i.e. themed movies with unsimulated straight sex) will be able to find more of that content under Straight Younger and Straight Older. Because these movies will not be in the Themed Movie category, the traditional Themed Movie users will not be bothered.
Users who want to see hot naked guys on screen will be able to find more content under the Voyeur category. Because these movies will not be in the Themed Movie category, the traditional Themed Movie users will not be bothered. (Voyeur is from voir, "to see". It seems to be the perfect category for watching hot naked guys. But if that isn't acceptable, these could go under "Softcore" instead. That category is rarely used.)
Users who want to see more classic films that relate to the history of fabulousness (i.e. drag) will be able to find more torrents of this type. These will be posted in Themed Movies, and I don't think most of the traditional Themed Movie users will be bothered by this either… but if they are, they'll have a place to comment and complain!

Because this site is indexed in google, the site owner(s) can expect more new memberships, as people search for a copy of a rare movie they want to see, and find that it's available only here. That's how I found this site, through a google search for a rare title.

bearbearbear

@urx585:

I admit I started this thread in a fit of pique over the idea that THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG wasn't gay enough for this site, especially since we have so many French members…

I don't understand how you could reasonably take such a position. That film is not gay or gay-themed or homoerotic or anything else. It just is appealing to many gay men for various reasons. The same could be said for a good meal in a nice restaurant served by a handsome waiter. Just because it is appealing to many gay men for various reasons doesn't make it gay.

urx585

Fair enough! I can't guarantee my position is based entirely on reason. I love the film. I don't think it is gay-themed; it's clearly not.

But it is gay. It is really, really gay, like Scott Thompson wearing a pink tutu and sipping a Cosmo while listening to Peggy Lee and smoking a Capri 120.

I have a pink t-shirt that says "Run, Toto, Run!" across the front, printed in a slightly darker shade of pink. THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG is way, way gayer than that shirt.

And a lot of French GTRU users will agree with me on this. So I ask: what's the harm in keeping it on the site? If there is an issue, it will be deleted by DMCA. If you or me or anyone else, including moderators, think it's not gay enough to stay here, we can start a forum discussion for it. All I ask is that the opinion of French GTRU users be given extra weight, because they are the most culturally aware of the film's context.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

bearbearbear

@urx585:

All I ask is that the opinion of French GTRU users be given extra weight, because they are the most culturally aware of the film's context.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

No, in the case of this particular film, no.

Can you list some valid cultural points related to gayness that only French GTRU users would be aware of or understand? It may be more important to French culture than U.S. culture (for example) in general simply because it's a French film, and certainly French GTRU users are more likely to have seen it than others, but I don't think it has any secret gay subtext or code or importance that is only discernible to French people, French LGBT+ people, francophones, etc. Has it even been analyzed or written about to relate it to anything gay?

It's also not very important to have it on a gay torrent site because it is so readily available elsewhere and likely will be indefinitely.

urx585

Here is an abstract from an article in an English-language academic journal that affirms the queerness of THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/590952/summary

There are many others, but you have to search for French-language articles.

The film was posted recently, and a few French users commented on how gay it was… but unfortunately that torrent was deleted, so I can't give you links to those comments. The only currently active torrent does not contain the comments from French GTRU users.

Your comments are very sensible and I don't disagree with you. I just ask: what's the harm in having it available here, too? It's gay enough. There are other torrent sites for movies but why send people elsewhere?

bearbearbear

@urx585:

Here is an abstract from an article in an English-language academic journal that affirms the queerness of THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/590952/summary

There are many others, but you have to search for French-language articles.

That is just an excerpt of a review of a book, but it doesn't indicate that the book affirms the film's "queerness" at all. Instead, it states that the book is focused on comparing aspects of Demy's films to aspects of fairy tales. I read elsewhere that one film (Donkey Skin) is analyzed through the lens of "gay aesthetics" in the book.

More importantly, it doesn't hint at any element of the film that would constitute gay cultural aspects, subtext, etc. that are particularly discernible to the French and which would indicate a need to give more weight to the opinion of French GTRU users in determining whether the torrent should be allowed or not. The author of the book that is reviewed in that article is not even French, but American.

Here's a doctoral thesis entitled "Queer Enchantments" that looks at Demy's films through "a variety of queer and feminist lenses". It even has a 25 page section on Umbrellas but does not once in the entire thesis mention anything queer about it and even describes it as an "idealised heterosexual love story".

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/107760/1/WRAP_Theses_Mulligan_2017.pdf

Your comments are very sensible and I don't disagree with you. I just ask: what's the harm in having it available here, too? It's gay enough. There are other torrent sites for movies but why send people elsewhere?

I already said I don't think it's important to have it here but I would also agree that it's not particularly harmful to have it here, either. It's simply a matter of convenience for some users for a film like this.

In a discussion a while back on this site regarding non-porn films, I asked the question, "Where do you draw the line?" I feel comfortable drawing it to exclude both The Lighthouse and The Umbrellas of Cherbourg but of course others can disagree and it doesn't bother me one way or the other what is decided. Even being familiar with them, it would never have occurred to me to look for either of them here on a gay torrent site if I wanted to watch them again, except for this discussion.

However, I really do appreciate being able to find gay-themed films here, many of which are difficult or impossible to find elsewhere, and I think that is important.

In the end, it's a privately-owned torrent site and the owner can do what he pleases with no obligation to explain or justify his actions.

urx585

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. I didn't see that thesis when I searched, but English language articles on this film are very scarce.

I'll be honest, I first saw the film when I was young, but didn't realize it was a French gay icon until it was posted here and a few French users educated us on its meaning in the gay culture of France. Their comments were compelling and really made a lot of sense… but they are gone now, so I can't share them with you.

So why does the opinion of French users matter more, when we judge the gayness of this film? One reason might be that any French user would search google.fr using "thèmes gay dans les parapluies de cherbourg" and they would get much more interesting results. For instance, from French wikipedia (translated to English by google):

"Homosexual culture has appropriated Demy's work, and in particular Les Parapluie de Cherbourg.

Laurent Jullier spots some signs of male homosexuality in the film: the pink neon with curvilinear writing that indicates the toilets in the Aubain garage, an indication of improbable aesthetics in such a place; the sailor who "awaits the client under a lamppost, when Guy accompanies Geneviève home on Carmen's evening" , in a pose that Rainer-Werner Fassbinder will repeat in Querelle.

The use of bright colors and music speak to the homosexual imaginary. Another hypothesis that explains the important place of the film in gay culture, when no character is homosexual, lies in the very structure of Guy and Geneviève's love story, which, beyond the sexual orientation, would speak more to gays: the dynamic at work is that of “placardisation” , of the feeling of shame that the social norm imposes on a relationship. Geneviève, for example, must hide her love from her mother and “this instinctive way of lying, of integrating social constraints, is on the other hand immediately understandable by a gay public who lives it or" [translation cuts off here]

Here's another article that explicitly associates the film with queer elements:

https://journals.openedition.org/map/1265#tocto1n1

Excerpt (translated by google):

"In a review edited by the GKC (Gai Kitsch Camp), Q for queer, Philippe Colomb offers a "homosexual reading" of the scene, showing how much it can reveal the social pressure that the majority of homosexuals had to undergo during the 1960s in France. Our goal is not to try to identify the gay dimension in the work of Jacques Demy, to look for any hidden truth, but simply to understand how queers were able to appropriate this work, which is certainly a major element of French homosexual culture."

And now it becomes much easier to argue that a "major element of French homosexual culture" belongs on a site named gaytorrent. It's not gay themed; it's gay. It's gayer than Liberace snorting poppers in the back seat of a gold-plated limo with zebra-print upholstery.

Thanks! I know a lot more about the movie now. The research takes time, but it can be enjoyable too. Let's have this type of discussion for every questionable film.

bearbearbear

@urx585:

"Homosexual culture has appropriated Demy's work, and in particular Les Parapluie de Cherbourg.

That's exactly my point! It appeals to gay people but it is not inherently gay. You can view any film through a gay lens or apply queer theory to anything whether or not it was intentional on the part of the creator. You can also find "gay details" in any film if you look for them. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

French people may have first dibs on this film because it's French, but I don't think that there's anything inherent to it that only French people can divine. In this particular case, being French or a francophone doesn't confer any special advantage in seeing what's not there in the first place. You still haven't given a single concrete example.

So where do you draw the line? It doesn't really matter to me where you draw it, but be honest about why you're drawing it, where you're drawing it, and who is especially qualified to do so.

It is interesting to note that Demy died of AIDS. How he got HIV, I do not know.

urx585

Love the photo!

I am arguing that historic films that are essential to gay culture and drag culture should be allowed, despite not being explicitly gay-themed.

The elements of an 80's-themed party are hairspray, shoulder pads, and British New Wave music. Those elements are part of the 80's. The theme is comprised of the elements.

If this film is "certainly a major element of French gay culture", then it is gay in and of itself. It is gay because the French gays appropriated it, i.e. they took it for themselves without asking permission, similar to the way English-speaking gays appropriated the word "queer". That word is ours now. This film is ours now.

Of course, we have to accept that the French academics know what they're talking about… but in this case, that's not such a huge stretch.

Also, I completely agree that non-French people can research and understand this film's important place in French gay culture. It's just harder to do, because we need translation services, and we're going to miss some of the cultural references. One of the French users who commented on the first posting of UMBRELLAS compared it to THE WIZARD OF OZ. In my mind, this film is a concrete example, but I think I understand why you don't agree. Part of its gayness is extrinsic and acquired, based on French gay culture's understanding and embrace of the "placardization" of the romantic relationship.

Let's see... how about DIE HARD 4? I'm guessing the majority of GTRU users don't think it belongs here, and it probably doesn't, but the way Bruce and Justin treat each other as romantic interests is really obvious, throughout the movie. They do the daddy/son thing perfectly and the director told them to. Part of that effect is conveyed by subtleties in language. I don't think it would be nearly as obvious to a person with no English who is watching it with subtitles in their native language. If it was dubbed, the effect might disappear entirely. Perhaps this is a concrete example of a movie with homoerotic elements that are difficult for disinterested foreigners to pick up on.

So where do you draw the line?

The rules for Themed Movies are confusing and use an undefined word, which creates gray areas that require interpretation. I propose that GTRU users collectively know what's gay enough to belong here. I will commit to accepting the decision of a diverse group of forum users, even if I disagree. You and I have modeled the process I'm proposing for these types of films, in a small way:

The first user (me) made an English-language search, and found something about queerness in Demy's work, but it wasn't specific to UMBRELLAS. The second user (you) made another English-language search, and found something that had more information (the thesis.) The third user (me again, but it could have been anyone) made a French-language search on google.fr and found several more specific and relevant information sources about UMBRELLAS, which strongly suggest it is gay enough to clear the gray areas in the rules.

The process did not require any time or effort from a mod.

The process also showed how knowledge of the film's original language and culture helps find information sources that we can use to decide if it's gay enough. I'm suggesting we explicitly give greater weight to the opinions of users from the film's source culture, but it might not be necessary. If they are sharing information that the rest of us aren't aware of, their deeper knowledge will be obvious to everyone.

Of course, if the site owner(s) want to delete a torrent, they will ignore the forum decision and do whatever they want. C'est la vie!

Thanks again for your very thoughtful comments!!!

cinemacapman

Well, to keep this short, instead of some of the long college thesis that have been posted here :cheesy2: , IMHO if someone can make a valid and reasonably logical defense for something being here (instead of just saying "It's gay!", or something like that), then it should be left alone and stay here.
Not some crazed interpretation or subjectively applied subtext, but something which does make sense.

Just IMHO…

eobox91103

@cinemacapman:

if someone can make a valid and reasonably logical defense for something being here

I think this is key. Some films will be obviously gay-themed (by most definitions), while others will need an explanation–and that can add to the enjoyment of the film. If the "gay connection" is not obvious, and it's not explained, users should expect a gentle comment to the effect of, "Is there a gay theme here?" Responding with a hissy fit that one of the day players in scene 241 was gay in real life doesn't cut it...although we see that a lot.

Uploaders shouldn't think of their torrents as raw meat tossed into a shark tank, but rather as a menu item for viewers to consider. Make an argument why a person should invest not only dowload volume but the time to watch the film.

kalayaan

Mod 2222 is competent as he can be, we mod may not agree on certain matters, but I stand by his sound decision.

As for Democracy, this is a Private gay site with the emphasis on the word private.

I agree with the last two replies.

cinemacapman

@kalayaan:

As for Democracy, this is a Private gay site with the emphasis on the word private.

Except…without the Users/Downloaders, this site wouldn't be here. It may be a Private site, and there may be a specific owner, but you can't run the site by only what the owner/mods say goes. The Users have to have some input, otherwise what's the point of even having the site?

kalayaan

But that's it, there will always be a user/downloader, they come and go. If you meant by input translate to suggestions, then yes.

To say, a user(s) with "only" cultural competent should remove torrent from Themed movie is a different matter, That's is why we have mods.

Mod 2222 applied as a volunteer for that duty and was interviewed by senior mod of this site and found him suitable.

scratcher71

The Danish Girl and stranger by the lake? I heard of it before, but I've never seen stranger by the lake? It's another french film. French= Le Gay :love: