Gay and Muslim
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You really need to educate yourself with some academic sources, not web sites like "religion of peace" FFS. The Islamic world has a large body of homoerotic literature and art. Homosexual sex was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including the whole of the Middle-East) in the mid-19th Century, long before it was legalised in the West. European homosexual men fled to Islamic Morroco, Greece (under Ottoman rule) etc. to flee persecution at home. Iran had a royal gay wedding in the 1970's. Homosexual sex was only made illegal in Iran in 1979 and in Saudi Arabia (in imitation) in 1980, both for political reasons, not religious. Islamic history has stories of several rulers who had sexual relationships with other men, for example several of the Caliphs of Cordoba and Babur, the founder or the Mughal Empire in India.
Yes, of course homosexuality existed before it was understood by modern psychology but the concept of an innate subconscious behavioural preference did not. The concept did not exist and there was no word for it. Yes, men have been having sex with men for as long as there have been men. Formal sexual relationships between men and men or men and adolescents existed in many cultures including Ancient Greece and Rome but it was not understood in the way that we do now.
The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
1. The majority of homosexuals are women.
2. There are many homosexual men who do not or have not yet had sex with another man.
3. Surveys show that a small proportion of heterosexual men have sex with other men and given the small proportion of men who are homosexual, the number of heterosexual men who have sex with other men actually outnumbers the total number of homosexual who have sex with men.So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
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The Quran and the Bible may condemn sex between men but:
That is the complete opposite of your previous claim.
I used that site because it was quick and easy. If you claim that they are lying about the quotes from the quran, then it's up to you to prove it.
So that translation of "a men having sex with another man" as "homosexuality" is an error. No one has ever been punished in any religion for being homosexual. They have been punished for having sex with another man. That is completely different and punishments for having sex outside marriage are typically just as severe if not worse.
Are you seriously gonna try to pull that crap?
Looking at another man in a faggy way is enough to get you punished. I know, I know, your rebuttal is that "in a faggy way" wasn't a term in use in the 7th century.
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The Economist is now an expert in homosexuality in the middle east?
Go back and read what I wrote in the 8th post (I think that's it, haven't had my coffee yet). I covered some of the things in the quran.
The British and the French didn't go into the region until 1,100 years later. So how an the be blamed for what the quran says? Are you claiming time travel is real?
Also, it seems that there is "racism of low expectations" by claiming that even the Europeans have left the region (no longer control it) that the brown people are to thick to modernise and do the morally right thing.
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Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups. It is NOT defined by what is written in religious texts. Religious texts are cultural artefacts. They (and their interpretation) are the product of religion, not the other way around.
You don't see the irony of you, an atheist, telling Muslims how they should interpret their religious texts?
You often see the argument on social media:
Christian: Quote from Proverbs, quote from Genesis, quote from Job, quote from Samuel.
Atheist: But the old testament also says your should not cut your hair and not wear clothes made from more than one kind of thread.
Christian: Well Jesus came to give us a new covenant. The Old Testament isn't relevant anymore.
Atheist: But you were just quoting from the Old Testament!
Christian: Ummmmm.
Both sides in this discussion have got it wrong. Christianity is NOT defined by the Bible. It has not been learnt by reading the Bible. It has been learnt within a family and a social group (the church). The problem in Christianity (and Christian influenced culture including the atheists) that because of the reformation, people think that a religion IS defined by a text, creating this cognitive confusion.
This is even less true of Islam and other religions. For most of the history of Islam (and of Christianity), the Quran and the Bible were not even translated into languages that people could understand.
I know many gay Muslims, mainly from India, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. I know the Middle-East is different, but most Muslims don't live in the Middle-East. They live in South and South-East Asia. I have seen two gay men dressed in Desi drag (Saris, Indian Jewellery, wigs, makeup) kneeling on floor doing their prayers before going out to the Taxi Club in Sydney to pick up Lebanese men (who apparently like that kind of thing).
I have been in a gay night club in Dacca during Ramadan where they have suddenly turned off the very loud music because of the last call to prayer and then a lot of the men there knelt down to pray.
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So, what you are saying is that I can call myself [insert religion] and do whatever I want, regardless if it goes completely against the holy texts of that religion.
There is no irony, in my comments, when a bunch of cherry pickers are wanting to force their religion on me. That survey from about 2013 showed that British muslims are against homosexuality and want sharia law, while claiming welfare for their 5 wives which is clearly against the quran. They do many things that violate the quran, but that's ok to them.
As for the atheist vs christian thing, it's because christians cherry pick from both the OT and NT, while saying that the OT doesn't apply to them. It can't be both. Either the OT applies or it doesn't. If it doesn't apply then they need to shut up about it.
Just because gay muslims do something, does not mean that it's allowed according to their holy texts. This applies to any muslim.
There are religious and cultural jews, for example. The same could be said for muslims (and others). If they are "cultural", then they have no claim on religious beliefs and need to keep their mouths shut about what their holy texts say.
BTW, I'm not sure if you see it, but your stance justifies burning holy texts because they don't matter to religion. It's extremely ironic, but totally expected, that atheists read holy texts but believers don't.
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You are still obsessed with the protestant Christian notion that religions are defined by "Holy Texts".
You do realise that Christianity existed before the New Testament did?
You observe that Christians "Cherry Pick" from the OT and the NT and Muslims basically ignore the Quran, but you don't get that YOUR understanding of the relationship between religion and "holy texts" is wrong, not their's?
As I said earlier, one of the weirdest things you find on social media is "atheists" insisting that Christians and Muslims be religious fundamentalists. In other words, atheists who have a purely fundamentalist (mis-)understanding of Religion.
At most, a literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible) only condemns anal sex between men. However:
1. Girls are publicly caned in Malaysia for kissing in public (not men and not having anal sex).
2. Men are arrested and imprisoned in Egypt for dancing together at a party on a boat (not having anal sex).
3. A boy is expelled from school in the USA for wanting to bring his boyfriend to the school prom (not wanting to have anal with his boyfriend at the school prom).
4. A B&B in the USA refuses to honour a booking made by two men (to stay in a room, not a booking to have anal sex) because it is against their "Christian Values".If religion is based on "holy texts" as you insist, how do you explain this discrepancy?
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You keep proving that holy texts mean absolutely nothing so there is no problem to wipe my ass with the pages or burning them.
Oddly though, believers get bitchy when you disrespect their holy texts.
You are not a christian if you ignore what the bible claims Jesus said and did. Same with muslims ignoring the quran.
Believers always have excuses on why they do things prohibited in their holy texts.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, islam prohibits looking at another man in a faggy way. That's far more than just anal sex.
Again, if you refuse to follow founder of your religion, then you aren't that religion. It's like homophobic jews and muslims that eat pork.
You know your god is made up when he like everything you like and hates everything you hate.
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Yes, of course religion is made up. I already said that religion is a cultural phenomenon and that "sacred texts" as cultural artefacts. No intelligent person would seriously believe otherwise. It is strange that you seem to have doubts.
Religious beliefs change every few decades, even more frequently now. Many religious beliefs that have been falsified by science have dropped out of fashion. Liberation theology, evangelical prosperity theology and the psychotic interpretations of the Quran that ISIS/DAESH (/CIA/MOSAD) have been pushing are new and have not existed previously in those religions.
I personally have no use for the religious beliefs of Christio-Islam and I suspect you don't either. The thing that is most strange about this thread is that the religious belief that is most obviously false, that is most obviously inconsistent, that is unique to only Protestant Christianity until very recently, that you yourself have given examples of as being false, is the belief you hold onto most strongly. That is that religions are defined by sacred texts.
Of course you are going to have a hard time holding onto that for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto etc. etc. etc. for what sacred text do you suggest defines them?
This topic basically says, "Being Gay is inconsistent with being Muslim because the Quran condemns anal sex between men" despite the fact that their are millions of religious gay muslims, that Islamic literature and art have many examples of homoeroticism and that until very very recently the Islamic world has been more tolerant of homosexual relationships than the West. These are the facts only contradicted by your deep devotion to the obviously false belief that people's religion is defined by what is written in books.
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All religion is made up. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.
How can you (generic) go against "the perfect word of god", as the quran claims to be? You have to be a pretty shitty believer in your god.
ISIS is using the quran's actual verses. "The religion of peace" is a lie when compared to what the quran actually says.
AGAIN, if you are willing to ignore "the perfect word" of your god, you are a shitty believer.
If you refuse to eat pork because the quran tells you not to, but take a dick up the ass or look at another man in a lustful way, you are a shitty muslim.
NOTE: I'm focusing on islam because that's the topic of the thread. However, all religions are the same; ie shite.
BTW; Buddhism does have written holy texts; https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/scriptures-texts
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Interesting. An Atheists making judgements about who is and who isn't a "shitty" Muslim based on his own religious beliefs about the importance of religious texts.
Yes, Buddhism has a huge volume of scriptures but none of them define Buddhism, though I guess you as a non-Buddhist are going to tell me as a Buddhist about my own religion. Not surprising since you seem to think yourself qualified to teach gay Muslims about Islam.
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627
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As long as you are not in a Muslim country with a threat of retribution who are you hurting?
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
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Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
And? Whoever said religious faith is rational and consistent? In fact the famous Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (the author of the five proofs of god that Richard Dawkins dismally failed to understand let alone refute in his God Delusion book) said that if people were forced to believe because of reason, then they would not be saved because they hadn't made the choice. An Islamic philosopher who's name escapes me at the moment said about the same thing.
If you believe in the kind of god Christio-Muslims believe in, it is not subject to reason. Strangely, many pseudo-atheists remain embedded in Western Christian culture and so believe that an idea based on facts and reason can itself be a truth. Presumably these ideas/truths float around in the universal supernatural mind (but don't mention the word "god").
Of course ideas only exist in one place that we know of in the entire universe; human minds. Only facts (primarily phenomenological facts) are truths.
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So you have made the entire point of atheists; religion is totally made up bullshit.
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Yes, religion is totally made up, obviously.
Not all religions are theistic, depend on a belief in the supernatural or require any beliefs at all (for example Zen Buddhism) so you can be religious and be an atheist.
Religion is essentially psychotherapy. Religious beliefs are psychotherapeutically useful fictions (useful bullshit). Their usefulness does not depend on them being logical, consistent or "true". Meditation, drugs or counselling by a psychologist are more effective.
Most of the literature, art, plays, movies ever made are depict something that is "made up" i.e. fictional. Many people are inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker and the concept of The Force but very few of them think that the story is non-fiction. Something doesn't have to be true to be useful. Not everything made up is bullshit.
The theories of science are similarly useful fictions. They are made up by scientists and mathematicians and tested against facts. If they explain existing facts then they are useful. If they predict future facts they are even more useful. If they are falsified by facts they are modified or discarded. They are never true.
I don't believe there is a god or there is a supernatural because those beliefs are useless to me. I have no problem if someone else finds those beliefs useful to them as long as they don't think the beliefs that they chose authorise them to affect the lives of people who haven't made the same choice. Historically there is only one religion that assumes that authorisation, and it isn't Islam.
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Today I went with some friends to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Festival Fair Day. In the section were religious groups have their stalls, I noticed the Sydney Queer Muslims stall.
I wasn't surprised that there was no long queue of Gay Christians and Atheists waiting to explain to them how they don't understand their own religion and that Gay Christians and Atheists know more about Islam that Gay Muslims do, because such people only exist in social media echo chambers, not in the real world.
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OR, it could be that liberals love to use violence when they are disagreed with.
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I know it is out of fashion in the new world of reactionary populist conservatives, but facts outweigh opinions. The social media mantra is "everyone has a right to their own opinions", but not all opinions have the same weight. Some opinions are supported by facts and some are falsified by them. Some opinions are wrong. People do not have a right to hold an opinion that is falsified by the facts.
The opinion that it is raining outside now does not have the same weight as the opinion that it isn't. Depending on the facts, one of these is wrong. The other is right. So let's weight the apparently majority opinion on this thread against some facts:
OPINION
“You can’t be gay and be a Muslim”.
FACTS
1. There are thousands, probably millions of gay Muslims. I know a few of them personally.
2. There are gay friendly mosques in France, Canada, USA, Australia etc..
3. Recently gay couples have been married in mosques.
4. Sydney has a “Queer Muslims” group. I saw their stall at the Mardi Gras fair day last weekend. I know many other countries have similar groups.
5. Until very recently (late 1970s), in Muslim countries that do not have a legacy of European colonial laws, homosexuality was not criminalised. Homosexuality was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including most of the Middle East) in the 19th century, long before many Western countries. In Iran it was never illegal until 1979. In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation, homosexuality has never been illegal until very recently where it was outlawed in two provinces for Muslim residents of those provinces only.
6. European gay men used to migrate to North Africa (mainly Morocco) and the Middle East or the Greek Islands under Ottoman rule to escape persecution and stigma. e.g. https://www.gaytor.rent/details.php?returnto=%2Fmytorrents.php&id=1d2499d5cba28cbab9f5b89e8d356c2c02d21710dd948dad
7. There are very many examples of explicit homoeroticism in Islamic Art and literature.
8. There are many examples of Islamic rulers who were homosexual. One of the rulers of Cordoba had a male harem. Another (maybe the same one) had his wife cut her hair and dress as a man to be more pleasing to him. The first Mughal emperor Babur wrote in his memoir of his infatuation with a young man in his youth and his refusal to sleep with the wives that had been arranged for him because of his love for the young man.
9. In the majority of countries (including Muslim countries) where homosexuality is still illegal, the laws derive from inherited colonial European criminal codes that conservative societies have in many cases failed to reform, not from Islamic law. e.g. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, India (until recently), and many African countries inherited anti-sodomy laws from the British criminal code.So clearly, the opinion “You can’t be gay and be a Muslim” is falsified by the facts. The opinion is wrong.
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"You can be gay and a muslim" is only true if you ignore the perfect word of god.
Think about that, you have to ignore what you believe is the perfect word of your god.
Why not get fucked by a guy wearing a bacon condom, while sucking off a dog?!
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