Unprotected sex
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Correction. In the last paragraph of my last post, the word 'facts' should be replaced by the word 'evidence'.
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I'm not sure that I entirely follow your point there. What I was getting at is that there is no scientific evidence that concretely proves whether or not it is actually possible to contract HIV from a partner who has an undetectable viral load. This isn't to say that it's not possible to contract it, however it certainly does suggest that it's not very likely. Could you clarify a little more what exactly you're getting at?
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Yup, it's quite simple. Your statement…
there is not currently any scientific finding that proves that it is possible to contract HIV from an undetectable partner
is what relates to the axion that absence of proof is not proof of absence. While perhaps true, it does not support the statement that
if you were to contract it from an undetectable partner, you would be the first case where transmission has occurred
It may be supportable to say that it has never been demonstrated to have occurred, but it doesn't support a conclusion that it has never occurred.
At this point, we've lost any possibility of ever determining that transmission has never occurred - we will never be able to make that determination. All we can do, and what may well have been done, is to calculate an estimate of the probability of transmission, from a statistically significant sample of study subjects, which approaches zero. It'll always be an estimate and can never be demonstrated as being zero.
All the studies that could ever be carried out can only ever increase the confidence of that estimate. They can never determine the probability absolutely.
What does this mean in real terms? It's a matter of accuracy of statement. You're clearly responsible in your approach to your HIV and your communication with your partners. What I seek to do is to clarify what statements can be supported by data derived from studies. It's incredibly easy to misinterpret scientific results; I seek only to make sure that the statements are supported by the evidence.
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Now I see more clearly what you're getting at… Perhaps I should have been more clear about what I was getting at.
I will concede that out in public to the masses, it is not always possible to determine the source target of infection. In the majority of cases, when a new infection occurs, it is usually either known or reasonably suspected where the source infection originated (on the most part, but not in all cases). As for the studies themselves, when a new infection occurred, in every case a genotype test was run to determine whether or not the infection was passed on from the partner with an undetectable viral load. In each of these cases, it cold be scientifically concluded that the source of the infection most definitely was NOT the partner with an undetectable viral load.
In the masses on the other hand, it is not always possible to do this type of testing and match the samples back to the originating source. So yes... You are correct in that while there is no documentation that transmission has occurred from a partner who is undetectable, this does not necessarily mean that it has not. Based on the findings of these studies however, it is highly unlikely that (although not impossible) that transmission has occrred from a partner who is undetectable. This of course brings me back to the original point that there is no documented evidence that says that it isn't possible to contract HIV from a partner with an undetectable viral load. By the same token, there is no evidence that suggests that it is possible either, as there has never been a documented case where infection has occurred, and thus proving conclusively that it is possible either.
I guess what it boils down to here is that while there is no conclusive evidence either way, from the evidence that has been presented from the studies, it certainly would suggest that it's realistically possible that if you have an undetectable viral load, you cannot pass the virus onto another individual through sexual activity. Again, the key word that I'm stressing here is possible as there is no scientific documentation that concretely proves that it is impossible to contract HIV from an undetectable partner. Attempts at acquiring evidence that it is possible to contract HIV from an undetectable partner however have all turned up empty handed, as each attempt has failed to provide a causal link that traces back to the undetectable partner. Based on the evidence that does exist however, statistically speaking, it's actually safer to bareback with someone who maintains a undetectable viral load than it is to have sex with a condom with a partner with a high viral load. While on that topic, let's not mislead that statistic either… When used properly, condoms are an effective method in which to prevent the transmission of HIV, even with a high viral load. Speaking solely on the statistics from the scientific documentation that does exist, it's safe to say that at the very least, it's more unlikely to contract HIV from a partner with an undetectable viral load than to contract HIV from a partner with a high viral load when a condom is properly used. By the same token, it's also not very likely to contract HIV from a partner with a high viral load when a condom is used properly as well.
@MeatHook: I actually want to thank you for bringing up that point of technicality. It's always nice to see when someone can debate with facts, as to provoke an intellectually stimulating conversation.
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Thank you, and it was my pleasure. I enjoyed it too
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Sometimes you just get carried away.
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Sometimes you just get carried away.
Who are you referring to there?
My self
:hug:
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Hehehe…. Let he who has never gotten carried away cast the first stone lmao
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I BB and wear a condom. I BB with guys I have a history with and random guys at sauna and clubs. I get checked fairly often. It's a great feeling to just fuck bare and to not have to worry about the moment. I feel that at times I make good judgement when to BB and not too. I understand and I believe my sexually partners understand we are both taking a risk when we BB and if we don't want the risk I or them can ask to wrap the dick up.
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My husband bareback me because i dont like condoms. We have threesome with a close friend who we know is std free.
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Just out of curiosity, how do you know that they're STD free?
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If you have permanent boyfriend, be honest!!!
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I don't see anything wrong with it so long as you're in a monogamous relationship and you both get tested regularly..
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