Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill
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That's a lot like DeathSantis covering up coronavirus deaths during the pandemic.
Seems like FA GQP governors don't like dealing with reality.
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@gerggently He never covered up any deaths, unlike New York, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. No state has fared better during the pandemic than Florida, despite what you see on the news, look into the actual data rather than believing the mindless talking heads you see on tv.
In addition, re: this bill
Read it, it's not very long. It essentially protects parent's rights and does prohibit discussion of gender identity, but only for Kindergarten through 3rd grade.
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@ocpete said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
No state has fared better during the pandemic than Florida
I'm sorry but this is simply false. Florida is much closer to the bottom of the list than it is to the top, regardless of which metric you choose.
As for the bill, it also bans such "instruction" in grades 4 through 12 if it "is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate," neither of which term is defined in the bill, so it affects far more than just kindergarten through 3rd grade. And because the terms are not defined, teachers will self-censor, afraid to say anything for fear it will be misconstrued as "not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate."
All it takes is a single parent to sue, as the law creates a vigilante enforcement scheme giving cash payouts and damages to parents who do so and prevail. And with the terms undefined and ambiguous, the chance of prevailing increases markedly.
This is what DeSantis' press secretary said about it on Twitter:
"The bill that liberals inaccurately call 'Don't Say Gay' would be more accurately described as an Anti-Grooming Bill."
"If you're against the Anti-Grooming Bill, you are probably a groomer or at least you don't denounce the grooming of 4-8 year old children. Silence is complicity. This is hbow it works, Democrats, and I didn't make the rules."
So we're back to the old standby that gays are pedophiles and that we "groom" children. Both the attitude and the bill are indefensible.
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@NF16 When you take into account the numbers on Florida you have to include the demographics of the population. You also have to take into account the economic impact; I'm in California and it has been devastating.
The grooming I believe refers more to grooming them into transitioning rather than being gay.
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This is part of a decades-long "no promo homo" effort in multiple states and communities. In Texas, for example, a law remains on the books that insists that certain educational materials must "state that homosexual conduct is not an acceptable lifestyle and is a criminal offense." That law has not changed, even though gay sex has been legal since Lawrence v. Texas in 2003.
A South Carolina law made it illegal for public school educators to discuss "alternate sexual lifestyles from heterosexual relationships," unless they were talking about STIs. A federal judge finally overturned that law in 2020.
The earlier laws were and are pretty clearly unconstitutional and most have been successfully challenged. This Florida bill is part of a nationwide effort by Republicans to try to weasel their way into the same restrictions in a less explicitly bigoted way. We've seen similar efforts in Tennessee, Montana, and Arizona, among others.
Florida is the first to try to make their law unreviewable by the Supreme Court, though, by employing the same citizen vigilante tactic that Texas has so far successfully used in their abortion law. That tactic, should it end up being successful once the Supreme Court officially rules, is likely to result in some pretty significant consequences down the road on all sorts of issues.
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@ocpete said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
@NF16 When you take into account the numbers on Florida you have to include the demographics of the population. You also have to take into account the economic impact.
I'm aware of that. Florida is still not at the top of the list. Your statement was simply false.
The grooming I believe refers more to grooming them into transitioning rather than being gay.
You're welcome to interpret her comment any way you like but that isn't what she said. Nor is it what the law says.
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@ocpete said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
The grooming I believe refers more to grooming them into transitioning rather than being gay.
Let's take a look, shall we? Representative Carlos G. Smith, an openly-gay Florida legislator, responded to Pushaw's tweets:
"DeSantis' spokesperson openly accused opponents of #DontSayGay of being 'groomers' -- aka PEDOPHILES. Bigoted attacks like this against LGBTQ people are the worst of the worst. They're disgusting and dangerous and have NO PLACE in the Guv's office. #ChristinePushaw must resign."
Another responder replied:
"Sounds like she hit close to home. These people get nasty about being denied access to kids and that is a huge HUGE red flag."
Pushaw responded to both:
"A hit dog hollers."
This wasn't, and isn't, about transitioning. This is about demonizing us as pedophiles. We've seen this tactic over and over again for decades.
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@ocpete said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
The grooming I believe refers more to grooming them into transitioning rather than being gay.
If that were even the case, should we be comforted that the (paranoid) grooming aspect of this bill is majority transphobic, accompanied by a pervasive undercurrent of homophobia linked to pedophilic tropes?
Of course, no.
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The bill passed the Senate and DeSantis has already said he will sign it. As you might expect, the debate from the Republican members of the Senate was woefully and willfully ignorant:
From the Tampa Bay Times:
"Sen. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, the bill’s sponsor, also said the bill would address 'social engineering' in the classroom that he said could be leading to an increasing number of children coming out as gay or transgender in school."
And let's not forget Republican State Senator Ileana Garcia who insisted that being gay is "not permanent" and that this is a "good topic for happy hour." Oh, but it's all okay because she has a "close trans friend."
This is not a good time to be an LGBTQ student in the state of Florida. "Cancel culture" at its finest.
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@flozen I don't see how it's transphobic to believe someone should not be taught about transitioning in grades k-3, I don't believe it has any place there. Sexual matters of any sort really have no place being taught in the elementary schools.
When I was young I used to play with an easy bake oven, may have been slightly effeminate and didn't mind girls kissing me while other boys ran. I am happy now to be a gay man and have never had any desire to ever be a woman, but when I was an impressionable 6 year old I could've perhaps been convinced I did.
Growing up gay, trans, even str8 can be hard enough as it is; we don't need severely misguided teachers messing up their heads further, the teachers may have the best of intentions but are not qualified to deal with issues such as these, raising the child is responsibility of the parents and the community- the school is there solely to educate.
The truth is this bill shouldn't be necessary, because these issues should never be brought up in elementary school to begin with. However there are teachers out there who seem to believe they're on some type of woke mission- teachers need to teach, not preach or play therapist.
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@ocpete said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
@flozen I don't see how it's transphobic to believe someone should not be taught about transitioning in grades k-3
As I noted above, the bill covers the full range of elementary school, middle school, and high school. It does not stop at grades k-3. Please stop pretending that it does.
Growing up gay, trans, even str8 can be hard enough as it is
Which is precisely why we need role models and frank and open discussion in all areas, including schools.
the teachers may have the best of intentions but are not qualified to deal with issues such as these, raising the child is responsibility of the parents and the community- the school is there solely to educate.
Um ... a frank and open discussion about sexuality is, in fact, part of a good education. That doesn't stop just because they enter a school building.
The truth is this bill shouldn't be necessary
The truth is that this bill is not, in fact, necessary. Which is why nobody, not even the authors, has been able to come up with any actual scenarios or real problems that the bill will address. Which is also why proponents of the bill continue to lie about it (e.g., "It only covers k-3!" "It's really about transgender discussions!" and so on.)
However there are teachers out there who seem to believe they're on some type of woke mission- teachers need to teach, not preach or play therapist.
And yet, somehow, you aren't able to actually come up with specific examples of such teachers. Not to mention that if you do manage to come up with some, you would still have to demonstrate that existing regulations and practices don't cover such scenarios. And you would still have to explain why they wrote the law in such a way, with such ambiguity and lack of clear guidance, as to cause massive censorship and lawsuits.
You can't. Please stop trying to defend the indefensible.
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I also love how you pretend that teachers are "not qualified to deal with issues such as these," but somehow "the community" is. And that teachers don't, and shouldn't, help with "raising the child."
So teachers and schools aren't part of "the community?" They don't have any impact on a child's development? And my next-door neighbor is more qualified to have such a discussion with me than my teacher?
You might want to rethink that argument.
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Yes, he did and it has been well reported.
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The following video clip is notable for the petulance of DeSantis and his kindergarten fear-mongering -- but much more so, for the courage and confidence of these Florida high schoolers who are making their voices heard.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/03/08/dont-say-gay-bill-students-protest-desantis-orig-lr-as.cnn
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-lgbtq-bill-controversy-dont-say-gay/
"If passed, the legislation would go into effect for the 2022-2023 school year. As CBS Miami reports, HB 1557 prohibits instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity in kindergarten through third grade, and, in other grade levels, bars discussion that is not "age or developmentally appropriate." It would also allow parents to sue school districts that go against the law."
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@NF16 said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
As for the bill, it also bans such "instruction" in grades 4 through 12 if it "is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate," neither of which term is defined in the bill, so it affects far more than just kindergarten through 3rd grade. And because the terms are not defined, teachers will self-censor, afraid to say anything for fear it will be misconstrued as "not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate."
All it takes is a single parent to sue, as the law creates a vigilante enforcement scheme giving cash payouts and damages to parents who do so and prevail. And with the terms undefined and ambiguous, the chance of prevailing increases markedly.
Thank you for underlining that the bill certainly affects grades 4 through 12, as well as how the bill's ambiguity will create a legal quagmire and a financial incentive for scheming parents to sue and possibly win millions from the Florida taxpayer.
The goal, as you pointed out, is to advance fear -- and silence any discussion by educators up the grade ladder.
From my perspective, "LGBT" being silenced in schools is a step toward cutting us off at our literal roots.
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Frankly, I don't know how any of you can defend this law. Its purpose is to erase our community's existence in order to comfort and ease the passing down of ignorance from one generation to the next. It's fucking codifying our community's "Otherness."
It fundamentally assumes that conveying to young children tropes, themes, images, narratives, representations, etc. of heterosexual relationships does not equal "instruction on sexual orientation." It is, though.
[https://www.amazon.com/Berenstain-Bears-Family-First-Time/dp/0679881859](link url)
Take, for example, a teacher reading the above Berenstain Bears book to her class. That book is for 4-year olds with vocabulary that a 4-year old would understand. But what does the book also teach the children? It teach little Payton and little Abigail that a "family" is a Momma Bear and a Daddy Bear, with Grandma Bears and Grandpa Bears. Heck, there's even a Berenstain Bears book about Momma Bear having a baby. It's teaching the children about sexuality and hetero-normative behavior.
But the advocates for the bill don't even contemplate that such material teaches about sexuality. Again, it certainly does! As long as the material is hetero-normative, then it's just normal, ordinary, common learning material to the bill's supporters. Only materials discussing non-hetero-normative behavior is "special" material that needs to be locked away in the closet until the children get older.
In other words, hetero-normative images, stories, depictions, etc. are "normal" or "common" or "ordinary" because they are so ubiquitous and numerous. Homosexual or transgender material is not "normal" or "common" or "ordinary" because it is not ubiquitous.... And if this bill is passed, then the might of State Government will ensure that such material NEVER gets the chance to be commonplace. It is state-enforcement of the "Otherness" of the material.
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It is being defended because it is their side that's doing it. Party loyalty and 'owning the libs' has become the default setting and objectivity and rationality have been removed from the equation of deciding what to agree with and promote.
You can see this in action when the the ones that have been fully co-opted are even running interference for the orange oompaloompa's deference to Putin, and support for his military invasion.
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It has nothing to do with party loyalty.
I am against teaching kids things they are too young to understand.
As for Putin, you people support open borders, except when Putin does it. Also, your beloved St Obama and Biden didn't care the last time Putin invaded Ukraine.
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@raphjd said in Florida to Enact "Don't Say Gay" Bill:
It has nothing to do with party loyalty.
It has everything to do with party loyalty, along with a little transphobia, as has been clearly demonstrated in this thread.
I am against teaching kids things they are too young to understand.
And if anyone were actually doing that, you might have a point. They aren't, and you don't. Again, this legislation is not only completely unnecessary, as witnessed by the fact that none of you can actually come up with any real problem that the legislation solves, it is harmful to the LGBTQ community and to the very children you are claiming that you are "protecting."
As for Putin, you people support open borders, except when Putin does it.
ROFL.... This may well be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. What Putin is doing has jack shit to do with "open borders." And nobody in either party wants a fucking invasion. Get real.
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