#45's Tax Returns

Icc

Fredrick, this is rude. :spank2:

RC, you should have ignored it. :spank:

you're acting no better than two tranny queens fighting for a hit off a crack pipe.

:rotfl: :clap2:

For realze!!!! I lurk but don't post cuz you queens just bitch, bitch, bitch.

Frederick

@Icc:

@cteavin:

Fredrick, this is rude. :spank2:

RC, you should have ignored it. :spank:

you're acting no better than two tranny queens fighting for a hit off a crack pipe.

:rotfl: :clap2:

For realze!!!! I lurk but don't post cuz you queens just bitch, bitch, bitch.

WhatEVERRR!

flozen

And as long as we're having fun in this mosh pit of manners, I'd rather have people encouraged to engage in intelligent, respectful debate without an aside that denigrates the trans (whether "vestite" or "gender") communities.

cteavin

@royalcrown89:

I know a few black people who voted for #45, but that doesn't change the very real fact that his supporters represent a very small percentage of this country. They are a small minority of voters.… That's the point I was making to counter you saying he's coming out stronger.

To answer your question, yes, I would be this adamant to see them if there weren't anything incriminating in them. Did you not read my first few posts

Morning.

Working bottom up, I did read your posts. I get the feeling that you don't want Donald Trump to be twice elected, is that a fair assumption? To that, it'd be better for you if his tax returns proved wrongdoing. The way you write about Trump assumes that there is something in his tax returns that would incriminate him. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that you would be as adamant for him to release his tax returns if you knew in your heart of hearts that there was nothing in them and that his releasing them would bolster his chances in 2020. That's what I mean.

Now you might be the rare enlightened soul on the left who truly wants bipartisanship and a kumbaya, but that is not how I read the posts I've seen. Either way, the bulk of the left wants those returns released because they're looking for a Gotchya! moment.

Trump's base, from what I've read, is 24% of the electorate. Not so small if those numbers are correct.

I'm a Clinton voter – not a supporter (I held my nose and did my duty). The moment the pink hats came out you all lost me, and that attitude which has kept you all on the sidelines protesting has continued to push me farther right. I represent the undecided voter. I speak with and know far more people like me who see Trump being bullied than I do the Never Trumpers. We don't necessarily like Trump but we respect the Office of the President, something we see as being disrespected.

Since no candidate has come up for the left's 2020 bid, it is way to early to call but whoever that person is, they're going to have to work really hard to earn my vote. The more people push things like taxes and Russia, the harder it's going to be. In this way, you're empowering Trump.

You may not believe me but I caution your party in how fervently they're opposing. 2020 might not go as you expect, just ask Hilary about 2016 for proof.

cteavin

@flozen:

And as long as we're having fun in this mosh pit of manners, I'd rather have people encouraged to engage in intelligent, respectful debate without an aside that denigrates the trans (whether "vestite" or "gender") communities.

Da fuqu? :blond:

Where did this come from?

royalcrown89

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

I know a few black people who voted for #45, but that doesn't change the very real fact that his supporters represent a very small percentage of this country. They are a small minority of voters.… That's the point I was making to counter you saying he's coming out stronger.

To answer your question, yes, I would be this adamant to see them if there weren't anything incriminating in them. Did you not read my first few posts

Morning.

Working bottom up, I did read your posts. I get the feeling that you don't want Donald Trump to be twice elected, is that a fair assumption? To that, it'd be better for you if his tax returns proved wrongdoing. The way you write about Trump assumes that there is something in his tax returns that would incriminate him. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that you would be as adamant for him to release his tax returns if you knew in your heart of hearts that there was nothing in them and that his releasing them would bolster his chances in 2020. That's what I mean.

Now you might be the rare enlightened soul on the left who truly wants bipartisanship and a kumbaya, but that is not how I read the posts I've seen. Either way, the bulk of the left wants those returns released because they're looking for a Gotchya! moment.

Trump's base, from what I've read, is 24% of the electorate. Not so small if those numbers are correct.

I'm a Clinton voter – not a supporter (I held my nose and did my duty). The moment the pink hats came out you all lost me, and that attitude which has kept you all on the sidelines protesting has continued to push me farther right. I represent the undecided voter. I speak with and know far more people like me who see Trump being bullied than I do the Never Trumpers. We don't necessarily like Trump but we respect the Office of the President, something we see as being disrespected.

Since no candidate has come up for the left's 2020 bid, it is way to early to call but whoever that person is, they're going to have to work really hard to earn my vote. The more people push things like taxes and Russia, the harder it's going to be. In this way, you're empowering Trump.

You may not believe me but I caution your party in how fervently they're opposing. 2020 might not go as you expect, just ask Hilary about 2016 for proof.

No, I do not want him to be reelected but that's not my main concern at the moment. I'm focused more on 2018 than 2020 because I believe the 2018 midterm will be a turning point no matter what happens. I have theories but I won't get deep into it because my posts have been too long already as is and it would be better to do with a separate topic. Also, we're still too far out from when I can match highly specific patterns between that upcoming election time period and previous midterm time periods. Next month's off-year elections will be the best place to start for that analysis. I will say this: Hillary Clinton was a highly unpopular, widely known candidate with 20+ years of negative publicity (self-inflicted more than half the time). Are you absolutely confident that there isn't some young, energetic, noncontroversial person out there who will be inspired to run and capture the support of enough people to give him a 365 electoral college victory?

Whether you believe I'm being genuine or not, I respect your view because it has no bearing on how I truly feel. I do think there's a strong possibility that he has severely misled the American people on many things and that the tax returns will prove that; however, I also believe there's very little chance that he's done something illegal such as criminally evading. As it has been stated, the IRS would have acted on anything illegal prior to him being sworn in as president unless they themselves are complicit (very unlikely). It will all come down to what Mueller recommends after the investigation is over. When that time comes, I would hope all of the left would move on if there's no there there. Saying there's no there there while there's an open investigation is a bit premature. However, if something serious is there and charges are recommended, it would be highly important to explain why those charges are being recommended. I think he should get a court order to release the returns in that instance to shut down the "fake news" shouting we'll most likely hear, or he should at least be allowed to explain what he found in the returns and how it plays a role in the possible collusion with a foreign power to attack our democracy.

Frederick

@royalcrown89:

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

I know a few black people who voted for #45, but that doesn't change the very real fact that his supporters represent a very small percentage of this country. They are a small minority of voters.… That's the point I was making to counter you saying he's coming out stronger.

To answer your question, yes, I would be this adamant to see them if there weren't anything incriminating in them. Did you not read my first few posts

Morning.

Working bottom up, I did read your posts. I get the feeling that you don't want Donald Trump to be twice elected, is that a fair assumption? To that, it'd be better for you if his tax returns proved wrongdoing. The way you write about Trump assumes that there is something in his tax returns that would incriminate him. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that you would be as adamant for him to release his tax returns if you knew in your heart of hearts that there was nothing in them and that his releasing them would bolster his chances in 2020. That's what I mean.

Now you might be the rare enlightened soul on the left who truly wants bipartisanship and a kumbaya, but that is not how I read the posts I've seen. Either way, the bulk of the left wants those returns released because they're looking for a Gotchya! moment.

Trump's base, from what I've read, is 24% of the electorate. Not so small if those numbers are correct.

I'm a Clinton voter – not a supporter (I held my nose and did my duty). The moment the pink hats came out you all lost me, and that attitude which has kept you all on the sidelines protesting has continued to push me farther right. I represent the undecided voter. I speak with and know far more people like me who see Trump being bullied than I do the Never Trumpers. We don't necessarily like Trump but we respect the Office of the President, something we see as being disrespected.

Since no candidate has come up for the left's 2020 bid, it is way to early to call but whoever that person is, they're going to have to work really hard to earn my vote. The more people push things like taxes and Russia, the harder it's going to be. In this way, you're empowering Trump.

You may not believe me but I caution your party in how fervently they're opposing. 2020 might not go as you expect, just ask Hilary about 2016 for proof.

No, I do not want him to be reelected but that's not my main concern at the moment. I'm focused more on 2018 than 2020 because I believe the 2018 midterm will be a turning point no matter what happens. I have theories but I won't get deep into it because my posts have been too long already as is and it would be better to do with a separate topic. Also, we're still too far out from when I can match highly specific patterns between that upcoming election time period and previous midterm time periods. Next month's off-year elections will be the best place to start for that analysis. I will say this: Hillary Clinton was a highly unpopular, widely known candidate with 20+ years of negative publicity (self-inflicted more than half the time). Are you absolutely confident that there isn't some young, energetic, noncontroversial person out there who will be inspired to run and capture the support of enough people to give him a 365 electoral college victory?

Whether you believe I'm being genuine or not, I respect your view because it has no bearing on how I truly feel. I do think there's a strong possibility that he has severely misled the American people on many things and that the tax returns will prove that; however, I also believe there's very little chance that he's done something illegal such as criminally evading. As it has been stated, the IRS would have acted on anything illegal prior to him being sworn in as president unless they themselves are complicit (very unlikely). It will all come down to what Mueller recommends after the investigation is over. When that time comes, I would hope all of the left would move on if there's no there there. Saying there's no there there while there's an open investigation is a bit premature. However, if something serious is there and charges are recommended, it would be highly important to explain why those charges are being recommended. I think he should get a court order to release the returns in that instance to shut down the "fake news" shouting we'll most likely hear, or he should at least be allowed to explain what he found in the returns and how it plays a role in the possible collusion with a foreign power to attack our democracy.

I think Trump could win in 2020, but I have my doubts that he will run again. He is already 71 years old That would likely mean Pence would be the Republican candidate. Who would you suggest for the democrat candidate?

By the way, what are your expectations about Mueller? How long should that investigation go on before it is ended? Mueller began his investigation 5 months ago.. and so far, nothing has come of it.

royalcrown89

@Frederick:

I think Trump could win in 2020, but I have my doubts that he will run again. He is already 71 years old That would likely mean Pence would be the Republican candidate. Who would you suggest for the democrat candidate?

By the way, what are your expectations about Mueller? How long should that investigation go on before it is ended? Mueller began his investigation 5 months ago.. and so far, nothing has come of it.

Anyone without 20+ years of Republican-based smearing attached to their name could beat #45 in a landslide because 2016 was never about him; it was political apathy and fatigue (caused by two unpopular candidates) felt by the millions who sat it out that got him his 77,000 spread across 3 states win. A young, enthusiastic Democratic candidate can fix that problem easily. However, if the president and the Republicans get their massive tax cuts and reform the tax system I do believe the market will become more stable than it has ever been because of corporate greed and it will increase his chances of finally becoming a popular president. That possibility can only happen if the president stays on message and doesn't self-sabotage tax reform the way he's done other major issues this year.

It is a very real investigation, so there's no telling how long it will go on. This is a complex problem and the fact that the president doesn't take a foreign power attacking our democracy seriously is still troubling. Millions of people may have voted for a president based on entirely fake information provided to them by what seemed like (to them) legitimate sources on social media. That part is troubling but nothing can be done by that except to hold platforms like Facebook and Twitter accountable for their parts in it. Collusion is the crime and if it occurred and can be proven, I think many people in the White House and people involved with #45's campaign that helped the foreign power target our citizens should be charged with treason. This investigation isn't going anywhere; therefore, calling it a nothing burger is pointless. When it's over and nothing is proven and no charges are recommended, that's when it can be officially deemed a nothing burger. I wouldn't bet on that though, grand juries don't tend to just pick up any case and grant warrants to the FBI to kick in former campaign managers' doors and raid their homes. Are you aware of what happened to Paul Manafort and what's going on with #45's campaign foreign adviser Carter Page?

Frederick

@royalcrown89:

@Frederick:

I think Trump could win in 2020, but I have my doubts that he will run again. He is already 71 years old That would likely mean Pence would be the Republican candidate. Who would you suggest for the democrat candidate?

By the way, what are your expectations about Mueller? How long should that investigation go on before it is ended? Mueller began his investigation 5 months ago.. and so far, nothing has come of it.

Anyone without 20+ years of Republican-based smearing attached to their name could beat #45 in a landslide because 2016 was never about him; it was political apathy and fatigue (caused by two unpopular candidates) felt by the millions who sat it out that got him his 77,000 spread across 3 states win. A young, enthusiastic Democratic candidate can fix that problem easily. However, if the president and the Republicans get their massive tax cuts and reform the tax system I do believe the market will become more stable than it has ever been because of corporate greed and it will increase his chances of finally becoming a popular president. That possibility can only happen if the president stays on message and doesn't self-sabotage tax reform the way he's done other major issues this year.

It is a very real investigation, so there's no telling how long it will go on. This is a complex problem and the fact that the president doesn't take a foreign power attacking our democracy seriously is still troubling. Millions of people may have voted for a president based on entirely fake information provided to them by what seemed like (to them) legitimate sources on social media. That part is troubling but nothing can be done by that except to hold platforms like Facebook and Twitter accountable for their parts in it. Collusion is the crime and if it occurred and can be proven, I think many people in the White House and people involved with #45's campaign that helped the foreign power target our citizens should be charged with treason. This investigation isn't going anywhere; therefore, calling it a nothing burger is pointless. When it's over and nothing is proven and no charges are recommended, that's when it can be officially deemed a nothing burger. I wouldn't bet on that though, grand juries don't tend to just pick up any case and grant warrants to the FBI to kick in former campaign managers' doors and raid their homes. Are you aware of what happened to Paul Manafort and what's going on with #45's campaign foreign adviser Carter Page?

Silly me.. I post a very short, very clear question, and get a mountain of jibber jabber as a response. In the Republican race - which you claim any other republican could beat Trump.. Trump beat out 16 other republicans by an avalanche.
Also, as always, no moonbat can name a single viable alternative to Trump.

As for Mueller and his ongoing nothing burger.. He has nothing, but will probably drag it out to try and prevent Trump from winning a 2nd term. The most ironic thing about Mueller's investigation is.. nothing he is investigating is even relevant! SO WHAT! Hillary DID 100 times worse than Trump is even accused of doing, and it didn't stop her.

cteavin

@royalcrown89:

Anyone without 20+ years of Republican-based smearing attached to their name could beat #45 in a landslide because 2016 was never about him; it was political apathy and fatigue (caused by two unpopular candidates) felt by the millions who sat it out that got him his 77,000 spread across 3 states win. A young, enthusiastic Democratic candidate can fix that problem easily. However, if the president and the Republicans get their massive tax cuts and reform the tax system I do believe the market will become more stable than it has ever been because of corporate greed and it will increase his chances of finally becoming a popular president. That possibility can only happen if the president stays on message and doesn't self-sabotage tax reform the way he's done other major issues this year.

Millions of people may have voted for a president based on entirely fake information provided to them by what seemed like (to them) legitimate sources on social media. That part is troubling but nothing can be done by that except to hold platforms like Facebook and Twitter accountable for their parts in it. Collusion is the crime…

Again, if Trump's base was 25% of the electorate, that's a significant number of people you're discounting. There were plenty of people who wanted Trump.

To the rest, you'd have to look at the numbers over time. 1) Democracies in developed countries have lower voter turnouts. 2) No one on either side has yet produced a clear opposing voice. 3) The left and right have not found a compromise point and until that happens there's no reason for people to vote for the same old same old (especially on immigration).

You blew your argument when you said, "collusion is a crime". Collusion is not a crime except you're talking about corporate antitrust laws. There might be criminality, what that would look like no one has clearly stated (that I've read), but running fake ads on a social media platform is also, not a crime.

About the points you've cited here, you're arguing that people didn't know what they were doing because they were misled. That attitude means that your party can not accept responsibility for its actions in losing the election. That attitude spills over into the left's politics creating a nanny state of needless regulations. Whatever candidate emerges on your side, if their message is, "It wasn't your fault", then you'll lose.

Call to mind Clinton's newest book so you can see the correct punctuation on the title.

What Happened: Hilary Rodham Clinton

What happened during the election is that your party was smug, self-satisfied, and pushing an agenda at odds with half the country. Fix that and your party stands a chance.

royalcrown89

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Anyone without 20+ years of Republican-based smearing attached to their name could beat #45 in a landslide because 2016 was never about him; it was political apathy and fatigue (caused by two unpopular candidates) felt by the millions who sat it out that got him his 77,000 spread across 3 states win. A young, enthusiastic Democratic candidate can fix that problem easily. However, if the president and the Republicans get their massive tax cuts and reform the tax system I do believe the market will become more stable than it has ever been because of corporate greed and it will increase his chances of finally becoming a popular president. That possibility can only happen if the president stays on message and doesn't self-sabotage tax reform the way he's done other major issues this year.

Millions of people may have voted for a president based on entirely fake information provided to them by what seemed like (to them) legitimate sources on social media. That part is troubling but nothing can be done by that except to hold platforms like Facebook and Twitter accountable for their parts in it. Collusion is the crime…

Again, if Trump's base was 25% of the electorate, that's a significant number of people you're discounting. There were plenty of people who wanted Trump.

To the rest, you'd have to look at the numbers over time. 1) Democracies in developed countries have lower voter turnouts. 2) No one on either side has yet produced a clear opposing voice. 3) The left and right have not found a compromise point and until that happens there's no reason for people to vote for the same old same old (especially on immigration).

You blew your argument when you said, "collusion is a crime". Collusion is not a crime except you're talking about corporate antitrust laws. There might be criminality, what that would look like no one has clearly stated (that I've read), but running fake ads on a social media platform is also, not a crime.

About the points you've cited here, you're arguing that people didn't know what they were doing because they were misled. That attitude means that your party can not accept responsibility for its actions in losing the election. That attitude spills over into the left's politics creating a nanny state of needless regulations. Whatever candidate emerges on your side, if their message is, "It wasn't your fault", then you'll lose.

Call to mind Clinton's newest book so you can see the correct punctuation on the title.

What Happened: Hilary Rodham Clinton

What happened during the election is that your party was smug, self-satisfied, and pushing an agenda at odds with half the country. Fix that and your party stands a chance.

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information? Could it have been serious security problems on this country's part? Did the Obama administration fumble somewhere? That's very possible. But until the investigation is done, we have no idea whether that foreign power had help or not by anyone in the current president's administration and/or his campaign staff. Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

This is a serious matter and for me, it has nothing to do with Clinton losing. You can sit and think about how genuine I am all you want, I don't care. I want Mueller to get to the bottom of this because this administration is not taking it seriously. How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

cteavin

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

royalcrown89

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

Frederick

@royalcrown89:

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation

royalcrown89

@Frederick:

@royalcrown89:

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation

Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:

Frederick

@royalcrown89:

@Frederick:

@royalcrown89:

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation

Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:

I'm so glad you approve! :thx:

cteavin

@royalcrown89:

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

From what I've seen in these threads, I'm the only person with an opposing side taking you seriously. To say I'm not is to deflect from the points I raised.

Since you've not called it collusion here, I'll assume you accept my point.

You still have not explained what you mean by "obtaining personal voting data".

And I explained why people aren't taking this seriously: Influencing elections is part of global politics and the Never Trumpers look like Birthers. (I think Trump earned his own birther movement, having started that campaign against Obama, but that's another issue.)

To your original point, we disagree. If Muller has Trump's tax returns he's under no obligation to release them; I personally don't care one way or the other if he does. That's opinion. There's nothing to argue about. The other points are interesting to me.

royalcrown89

@Frederick:

@royalcrown89:

@Frederick:

@royalcrown89:

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.

...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.

Let's break this into several manageable chunks.

Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.

If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.html

Or think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.

There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).

Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.

Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.

From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation

Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:

I'm so glad you approve! :thx:

Oh, I wholly disagree with what you're saying. I just don't want to be called childish names so I'm trying a different approach with you.

royalcrown89

@cteavin:

@royalcrown89:

Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.

For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.

My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.

From what I've seen in these threads, I'm the only person with an opposing side taking you seriously. To say I'm not is to deflect from the points I raised.

Since you've not called it collusion here, I'll assume you accept my point.

You still have not explained what you mean by "obtaining personal voting data".

And I explained why people aren't taking this seriously: Influencing elections is part of global politics and the Never Trumpers look like Birthers. (I think Trump earned his own birther movement, having started that campaign against Obama, but that's another issue.)

To your original point, we disagree. If Muller has Trump's tax returns he's under no obligation to release them; I personally don't care one way or the other if he does. That's opinion. There's nothing to argue about. The other points are interesting to me.

col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others

It is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/04/russia-special-counsel-robert-mueller-using-multiple-grand-juries/540959001/

cteavin

@royalcrown89:

col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others

It is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/04/russia-special-counsel-robert-mueller-using-multiple-grand-juries/540959001/

Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion

So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?

Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.

Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.

So let's sum up:

We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.

People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.

And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.

Are we good?