Crisis in Europe - gays on danger?

myrea

The tidal wave could more likely come instead from ourselves as you made us notice in your first post, from Greece, Italy or even sectors of the Iberian and French societies which still hold lower civilization profiles.
The joining of the Eastern countries with the EU so, would be only to be feared if they had to be admitted in the euro because this would worsen those already serious unbalances whose a possible gay problem would be only a consequence.
For the things I've written you might have already understood that, as a gay and an European citizen,the only thing I wish to your/my/ourselves is the breaking of the euro cage and an ordered return to the previous national currencies.

ALAS for reason and logic, however after the euro goes apart there will be incredibly hard times, I think France well it has it's idiots but they won't have an antigay wave, that's really our worst case scenario there , and I do not know the Italian psyche, as for Spain I want to hold them in better light… but that's me, Portugal however well they have all the bishops hate let me tell you that, and well... it being channeled threw deaths of transsexuals, and others that never get the hate crime label they do have... but in many (not the majority but a great part of the population) the last 2 deaths of transsexuals here was fuel to a real wave of disgust with they not being trialed for hate crimes, this 2 women were stoned, beaten and left to die by starvation... and the latest gay crime, the one in New York In which the younger lover tortured and mutilated his older partner fired up the country, religious thrying to ilibate the boy saying he was corrupted and did it in defense, trying to purify himself and yadda yadda yadda (inserte the amazingly ridiculous apologies here) and the voices of reason saying that it was cold premaditated murder and the boy should be confined there in prison... we are hoping and waiting that the USA law get this guy for what he did.

agis

@myrea:

ALAS for reason and logic, however after the euro goes apart there will be incredibly hard times, I think France well it has it's idiots but they won't have an antigay wave, that's really our worst case scenario there , and I do not know the Italian psyche, as for Spain I want to hold them in better light… but that's me, Portugal however well they have all the bishops hate let me tell you that, and well... it being channeled threw deaths of transsexuals, and others that never get the hate crime label they do have... but in many (not the majority but a great part of the population) the last 2 deaths of transsexuals here was fuel to a real wave of disgust with they not being trialed for hate crimes, this 2 women were stoned, beaten and left to die by starvation... and the latest gay crime, the one in New York In which the younger lover tortured and mutilated his older partner fired up the country, religious thrying to ilibate the boy saying he was corrupted and did it in defense, trying to purify himself and yadda yadda yadda (inserte the amazingly ridiculous apologies here) and the voices of reason saying that it was cold premaditated murder and the boy should be confined there in prison... we are hoping and waiting that the USA law get this guy for what he did.

Myr, I agree with you on the fact that hard times could be about to come anyway but, if we wanted to think in a different way than that of those same churches we blame, we should imo always remember that a good and/or an evil never exist in themselves as the priests of many religions like to pretend but always inside a relationship.
So, even if the euro cage breaking had to lead us to hard times, we should always wonder about what kind of times could lead us to its preservation and then, and only then, with the support of this comparison, politically come to a decision. Politics, in fact, has been deemed amongst many other things as the art of the… lesser evil. Hasn't it?

myrea

@agis:

(…) we should always wonder about what kind of times could lead us to its preservation and then, and only then, with the support of this comparison, politically come to a decision. Politics, in fact, has been deemed amongst many other things as the art of the... lesser evil. Hasn't it?

By defenition that is politikos "of citizens or the state," from polites "citizen," from polis "city" as you surely know, Politic is the "study" in which we do indeed study and discuss ways of "sovereignty and regence" adequated to a circumstance, by circumstance we must define the region, it's cultural past, resources and so on…

How many politicians one does see today, that are even remotely aware of that, and dwell not so for the route of power and lobbyism?

agis

@myrea:

@agis:

(…) we should always wonder about what kind of times could lead us to its preservation and then, and only then, with the support of this comparison, politically come to a decision. Politics, in fact, has been deemed amongst many other things as the art of the... lesser evil. Hasn't it?

By defenition that is politikos "of citizens or the state," from polites "citizen," from polis "city" as you surely know, Politic is the "study" in which we do indeed study and discuss ways of "sovereignty and regence" adequated to a circumstance, by circumstance we must define the region, it's cultural past, resources and so on…

How many politicians one does see today, that are even remotely aware of that, and dwell not so for the route of power and lobbyism?

Possibly none of them and, to variable extents all over the world myr :). But it might prove impossible for a politician to completely avoid the route of power and lobbyism for the very nature of democracy itself which, after all, was born as the power (kratos) of a district (demos). You have done well though remembering those "sovereignity and regence" we could even simplify into a sort of "management" of a nation. If we are facing now a potentially dangerous crisis concerning many nations it depends in my opinion on a mismanagement not only of the Portuguese politicians but of the politicians of the whole Europe Germany, Netherlands and Finland included. And as things went and are going we can even give it a name: Euro (which is not Europe luckily but only a strange kind of currency).

myrea

@agis:

Possibly none of them and, to variable extents all over the world myr :). But it might prove impossible for a politician to completely avoid the route of power and lobbyism for the very nature of democracy itself which, after all, was born as the power (kratos) of a district (demos). You have done well though remembering those "sovereignity and regence" we could even simplify into a sort of "management" of a nation. If we are facing now a potentially dangerous crisis concerning many nations it depends in my opinion on a mismanagement not only of the Portuguese politicians but of the politicians of the whole Europe Germany, Netherlands and Finland included. And as things went and are going we can even give it a name: Euro (which is not Europe luckily but only a strange kind of currency).

To start I do not believe in this "united states of europe" ideology, we're nothing like the americans, the culture and past is so completely apart between regions, that the idea of a joined europe strikes me as lunacy.

agis

@myrea:

@agis:

Possibly none of them and, to variable extents all over the world myr :). But it might prove impossible for a politician to completely avoid the route of power and lobbyism for the very nature of democracy itself which, after all, was born as the power (kratos) of a district (demos). You have done well though remembering those "sovereignity and regence" we could even simplify into a sort of "management" of a nation. If we are facing now a potentially dangerous crisis concerning many nations it depends in my opinion on a mismanagement not only of the Portuguese politicians but of the politicians of the whole Europe Germany, Netherlands and Finland included. And as things went and are going we can even give it a name: Euro (which is not Europe luckily but only a strange kind of currency).

To start I do not believe in this "united states of europe" ideology, we're nothing like the americans, the culture and past is so completely apart between regions, that the idea of a joined europe strikes me as lunacy.

Concerning that I think instead 2 things myr.

In the first place the (cultural?) diversity has often been and not only now but along all the history of this continent a factor of dynamism and even a source of opportunities. So when Cristoforo Colombo got this idea of opening a new course towards the Indias he didn't see particular problems in addressing the king João II of Portugal first and the queen Isabel I of Castilla then. Both these sovereigns were quite clever and it doesn't seem they had something against the free circulation of manpower ;). In the same way the Dutch humanist Desiderius Erasmus from Rotterdam was not worried by the study of the works of his Italian colleague Lorenzo Valla, one of the most known middle age theologians, the Italian Thomas Aquinas had as his most important teacher and friend the German Albert der Große and the examples could of course go on.

Secondly, while it's true our American friends speak all a language which is very similar to English, they enjoy an efficient common currency and a totally free mobility of the labour amongst all the 50 States are we really sure they are so (culturally?) uniform? Is it so easy and gayforward to compare and equalize States like Hawaii and Montana or Alaska and Florida? Even if it was easier this greater cultural homogenity wasn't up to avoid for instance the costful historical episode named Secession War… ??? and then what Myr?...

Well I have this feeling that if it was only for the cultural bit Europe would be already united for good and after all when I think to Portugal I could think to many things like this one (a fado? ^-^ )

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjRm2BsmDZ4

not particularly to the same euro coin buying the same cup of coffee in Lisboa, Berlin or Roma.

myrea

They (the USA) do are heterogeneous yes, but well the effort is not if we can relate but if the countries have the will or interest in union, we put Letonia, Albânia, Spain and Holand together and we have very distant languages, systems, religions … almost everything, so to think there will be a standard to be appleies in terms of this is good for all, well you see the reality happening now it's non productive. And well at least here we get news of north and south Italy wanting to separate, the same with Belgium, and Spain, just like Jugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia did, there are more tensions to separate than unify at least I have that impression.

agis

@myrea:

They (the USA) do are heterogeneous yes, but well the effort is not if we can relate but if the countries have the will or interest in union, we put Letonia, Albânia, Spain and Holand together and we have very distant languages, systems, religions … almost everything, so to think there will be a standard to be appleies in terms of this is good for all, well you see the reality happening now it's non productive. And well at least here we get news of north and south Italy wanting to separate, the same with Belgium, and Spain, just like Jugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia did, there are more tensions to separate than unify at least I have that impression.

I agree there are growing tensions to separate myr and I'd add the euro adoption might worsen/have worsened them.
Administrative separations seem not an evil in themselves and can be made peacefully as the Czechoslovakia case showed.
Sadly it was not the case of the former Jugoslavia.
Italy could make an interesting case study for a better understading of our present problems instead ^-^. Its unification could seem and was publicized by the media of those times as the fulfilment of a very very sexy dream with this romantic eur… ahem hero Giuseppe Garibaldi, a sexy David against a bad,ugly and corrupted Goliath, the Southern king. Sadly, to make such nice dreams, you must fall asleep before, and, aware of that or not, Garibaldi had only realized this "union" as the fulfilment of the imperialist design of the Northern king and his prime minister Camillo Benso count of Cavour. Even the pope (!) had proposed a better plan for an union than this nightmare :crazy2:. So what happened next in the first years is easy to imagine. We never knew a thing comparable to a Secession war because the resistance of the southern people which went down to history under the name "brigantaggio" had more a tribal and less organized charachter and was anyway suffocated in the blood of 40000 victims. With such a disastrous beginning could you be still surprised if since more than 150 years we still have and speak of a "southern question"?

Butt...butt...butt...

even if, as the nice Portuguese fado reminds us of, the only sure things in the life are the death and all those taxes, cuts etc. these romantic eur... ahem heroes are stuffing us with, it seems a fact that after more than 150 years Italy is still a single nation. How did we do according to you myr? ???

myrea

@agis:

Butt…butt...butt...

even if, as the nice Portuguese fado reminds us of, the only sure things in the life are the death and all those taxes, cuts etc. these romantic eur... ahem heroes are stuffing us with, it seems a fact that after more than 150 years Italy is still a single nation. How did we do according to you myr? ???

I do not pretend to have an answer for that, for I do not know Italy indepth to make assumptions, however Fado let me tell you it dwells far more on the melancholic yearning of golden years… the description of banal everyday life as it goes by (taken by our use of portuguese guitar), and the madness in which some live with reality (barco negro as example), death making part of it surely... people enjoy drama maybe that's why the death themed fado's are better known, we have however gay themed fado's too, and fado's wrotten by gays, fado (fate) most common denominator is not even (saudade) but more waiver, neglect, abandonment, lurch and renoucement, which says more than enough about the portuguese psyches.

agis

@myrea:

I do not pretend to have an answer for that, for I do not know Italy indepth to make assumptions

Indepth of course me neither myr. Moreover all these things didn't take a single day and never worked exactly like a Swiss watch but, for Italy to keep together with a single currency, we had at least approximately to provide to:

an unification of the scholastic systems with a common to all the territory compulsory education (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)
the institution of a common national army which, during the first 140 years, imposed a compulsory national service for the males which was geographically asymmetrical since the Northern boys were sent South and the Southern boys North (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)
a common national diplomatic structure (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)
a national harmonization of the workforce markets with common well defined work contract typologies and retreat plans (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)
a national central bank (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)
a central government strong enough to direct resources from the richer areas to the poorer ones to avoid economical asymmetrical shocks (doesn't seem to me the case of Europe)

butt… butt... butt... just a moment myr while I was writing all these things suddenly it seemed to me these are grosso modo the same reasons the 50 USA States can successfully keep together.... :hmmm: is it really true the responsibility of this strange mess is to be ascribed in toto to the corrupted Portuguese politicians?

we have however gay themed fado's too, and fado's wrotten by gays, fado (fate) most common denominator is not even (saudade) but more waiver, neglect, abandonment, lurch and renoucement, which says more than enough about the portuguese psyches.

Orly? :cheesy2: Where? links? tubes?

myrea

@agis:

butt… butt... butt... just a moment myr while I was writing all these things suddenly it seemed to me these are grosso modo the same reasons the 50 USA States can successfully keep together.... :hmmm: is it really true the responsibility of this strange mess is to be ascribed in toto to the corrupted Portuguese politicians?

Surely not it is a poor situation to start, they just worsen the situation to make profit of cheapen labour force, start new year if the current budget plan is not vetoed by the presidency or by the constitutional court (which will have to be) all portuguese would suffer their paycheck to be cutten in half… I reckon hungarians have something to say about living short of cash...

dued to machismo gay one's are very subtle yet hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQkcFzNYe0 goes about mariquinhas which is a syn for affeminated, the song also hints that the subject might be a crossdresser but that is a hidden context... Cesarinni and Ary dos Santos and even Pessoa were all known for appreceating the other world of sex ahaha which makes their songs Lgbt writting yet not themed.

agis

Amália… Amália...

Of course the term mariquinha could lead us to a terribly off topic digression myr… so, perhaps, another time.
But with that "Surely not" you have started with....
Ok. Since in this forum the term agis has been bound both to a worn old Italian gay mole and a science fiction novel, I was starting to imagine a science fiction story where the main responsibilities of this euromess don't belong to the uglybadcorruptedshittyignobleportuguesepoliticians but to the handsomegooduncorruptedcleanoblegermanpoliticians. Since it's a science fiction story we could even hopefully think we are not coming to the bad fado of Sebastião o Adormecido… ^-^

Ready? I warn you we should dig a little deeper and closer to the moles' kingdom ;D

myrea

@agis:

uglybadcorruptedshittyignobleportuguesepoliticians but to the handsomegooduncorruptedcleanoblegermanpoliticians. Since it's a science fiction story we could even hopefully think we are not coming to the bad fado of Sebastião o Adormecido../quote]

IMHO you still have to equationate the alwaysfamousforfuckinguptheneighbourhoodoldUSApoliticians + banks

agis

ihihihihih myr agreed. After 4 years I've still to understand how and why did they allow the Lehman crisis to explode while a soft landing was absolutely possible with not negligeable advantages for the American taxpayers. Are you expert in economics? :cheesy2:
Anyway, concerning the European crisis, the Lehman affair was nothing more and nothing less than a simple detonator imo