Marine Le Pen the Trump of France?
-
Obama nor Hillary said they were going to punish Britain. Obama said Britain would be at the back of the queue but retracted the statement after they actually voted for Brexit and said they would work with them. To say that the EU is a failure is to say the union of states or the United States is a failure. Should the blue state that account for 64% of the economy just leave just because red states are a burden based on raw GDP and taxes? There are commodities beyond raw GDP that a union of countries provide. The EU gives a financial status that allows these countries to stand financial above the US and to have relevant talking points. It provides them an ease of markets and financial markets across borders. It just goes on and on. Britain has already lost a lot of money from the initiation of Brexit and are slated to lose more money. They are expected to lose another 12% of their GDP from losing banks alone. There are problems that need to be resolved but invoking solutions that are irreparable when we gather a modicum of sense later is not the way.
-
So Obama DID threaten the UK. I'm glad someone can admit that.
The histrionics is amazing. You automatically conflate the EU with the US. They aren't the same.
Also, the UK only voted to join the economic union, not a political one and especially not the crap that the EU has turned into.
-
Trump has said that he won't punish countries for leaving the EU.
That is the opposite stance of the Obama admin, which included Hillary.
you are one dumb racist son of a bitch! you need mental help kid…how old are you? 49 or 9? i'm 37 and i act more like a man than you. i've insulted you and all you come up with is "liberal this" and "liberal that" damn kid....if your boytoy donald j trump insulted you...would he then be a "liberal" too? you like most republicans are so dumb that you'd think that he was a liberal if he insulted your bitch ass!
-
Macron :cheers:
-
The problem with mainstream politics in many European countries including France is that perfectly reasonable debates are being shut down and labelled as "racist" or "xenophobe" or "islamophobe" even when some of the key people leading those debates are immigrants or Muslims. There's a problem with Islamic ideology in Europe where second and third generation European-born, middle class people are becoming increasingly radicalized because they think their secular parents who immigrated from the Middle East or North Africa during the last century don't follow true Islam.
Terrorism is being normalized as part of daily life and it will certainly affect tourism revenue. I've been avoiding France and French airports due to the terrorism threat whenever I travel to Europe. There's no way to deny the problem when millennials and LGBT which are some of the most traditionally left wing groups out there are supporting a conservative candidate in large numbers.
-
Globalism vs Nationalism. Globalism is open borders and ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT - DICTATORSHIP run by BANKS the IMF. National Sovereignty is cultural and individual and unique. BIG difference.
-
The problem with mainstream politics in many European countries including France is that perfectly reasonable debates are being shut down and labelled as "racist" or "xenophobe" or "islamophobe" even when some of the key people leading those debates are immigrants or Muslims. There's a problem with Islamic ideology in Europe where second and third generation European-born, middle class people are becoming increasingly radicalized because they think their secular parents who immigrated from the Middle East or North Africa during the last century don't follow true Islam.
Terrorism is being normalized as part of daily life and it will certainly affect tourism revenue. I've been avoiding France and French airports due to the terrorism threat whenever I travel to Europe. There's no way to deny the problem when millennials and LGBT which are some of the most traditionally left wing groups out there are supporting a conservative candidate in large numbers.
I don't think this is true. I am ready to be corrected, but I am not aware of any reasonable public debate in France that has been "shut down" or labelled as racist and Islamophobic. In fact the public debate in France is extremely robust. This idea that people raising genuine and legitimate critiques of Islam are being oppressed and stifled just does not wash with me. In fact, I think this claim is itself an attempt to distract attention from a much bigger and more pressing problem in France: genuine institutionalised racism and prejudice in French society.
It is certainly true that second and third-generation Arabs are turning their backs on the liberalism of their parents, and questions need to be asked about why this is. It also needs to be asked why this is happening in France so much more than in other countries: radicalisation of young Muslims is not an exclusively French problem, but it seems to be a far more serious issue in France than in it is in - say - Britain or Germany or Scandinavia. France has a really serious problem with disaffected and marginalised young Muslims who were born in France but do not feel French, and feel they have no stake in their own country or in the values of the Republic. And it is of course perfectly legitimate to ask whether this problem is related to the nature of Islam. But it is also necessary to ask whether this problem has anything to do with the nature of France.
Finally, yes, terrorism is a fact of life. But it's nothing new. In much of Europe (Spain, Britain, Italy), terrorism has been a fact of life for decades. France has suffered terrorism continuously throughout the twentieth century from all manner of political and religious groups. It's nothing new, but it is a fact of life and people live with it: like the posters say, we "keep calm and carry on." You are considerably more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist. You're more likely to slip and break your neck on a bathmat. So you might want to lower your umbrella when you go out in a storm, but avoiding French airports because of a negligible risk is just silly.
-
Muslims are always muslim first and last. They don't care where they live, they always view themselves as muslim, not their nationality.
-
Muslims are always muslim first and last. They don't care where they live, they always view themselves as muslim, not their nationality.
That's only partly true. Muslims are indeed Muslims first, always. Just as most Christians are - I hope - Christian first, Jews Jews first, and so on. I don't see any point in having a religion unless it is a central and defining part of your identity. If it's just a hobby you have to give you something to do on Sunday mornings, then I don't see why you would bother (and I don't think it would do you any good). Hard as it may be for secularists to understand or accept, religion is - for almost all religious people - the central core of their identity and experience.
But it is a lie to say that Muslims have no sense of their nationality or loyalty to their country. This is totally and emphatically untrue. British Islam is an excellent example of a hybrid national/religious identity, and perhaps it is so strong because it has formed over a relatively long period of time. British Muslims are clearly different from Muslims everywhere else. They share an awful lot of British values. Many of them are much more proud of being British than their non-Muslim neighbours (almost absurdly so to my admittedly cynical eyes). And they play a major role in our public life: we now have a Muslim cabinet minister, a Muslim mayor of London, Muslim heads of Oxbridge colleges.
The suggestion that Islam is somehow antithetical to any other sort of identity or incapable of assimilation is simply and transparently false.
-
Look at the polls. Muslims don't support western life, like the SJWs want us to believe.
-
Look at the polls. Muslims don't support western life, like the SJWs want us to believe.
Well when it comes to that, there are quite a lot of aspects of "Western life" that I don't support either, and I'm not a Muslim. And from your posts here I gather that there are quite a lot of aspects of "Western life" that you are critical of. (Your attitude towards the NHS, for instance, would certainly place you in a minority of the population).
Working out exactly what "Western life" is and what values are defining of "Western societies" is much more difficult than you might think. But rather than looking at tendentious polls I'd suggest you look at the evidence of your eyes: Muslims are integrated into British life at every level. That's not to say there aren't problems and issues that need to be resolved, and maybe questions that Muslims need collectively to address. But the fact that so many Muslims quite evidently do share "British values" and feel British makes a nonsense of the claim that there is some intrinsic problem with the nature of Islam that prevents Muslims from adopting any other national identity. Quite obviously "Britishness" (or "Frenchness", or "Westerness") are not mutually incompatible with Islam. Or at least they do not need to be so.
-
Muslims are integrated into British life at every level.
the topic was about france, and France doesn't work at all like US/UK concerning religion. It's not a country of communities. We have a law from 1905 saying the state is secular which is in fact incompatible with their views as they are very reluctant to obey these rules. Like no sign of your religion in public school. And no Jews and catholics apply these rules without making a fuss like they do.
-
the topic was about france, and France doesn't work at all like US/UK concerning religion. It's not a country of communities. We have a law from 1905 saying the state is secular which is in fact incompatible with their views as they are very reluctant to obey these rules. Like no sign of your religion in public school. And no Jews and catholics apply these rules without making a fuss like they do.
And that, I think, is precisely the problem. The French adherence to the ideal of militant secularism in public life is, in my view, very deeply damaging. And the idea that France is somehow a single national community that must transcend all other loyalties is so obviously deluded that I amazed that so many French people still cling to it. France has never been like that. France has always been deeply divided - over politics, over religion, over regionalism and over language. It is of course not true that "Jews and Catholics apply these rules without making a fuss." The 1905 secularism law is deeply loathed by many communities in France, and also ignored by many. But the law is also selectively applied: Jews who wear a kippah or Sikhs who wear a turban are not targeted for discrimination in France in the same way that women who wear the hijab are.
I have deep affection for France, but I dislike the hypocrisy that surrounds the public rhetoric of secularism. And I fear for France, because I think that the ideological pretence of being a single national community in which differences of ethnicity and religion don't matter is actually concealing deep and painful divisions that are manifested in a whole range of ways - including Islamist terrorism. It is perhaps time for France to ask whether the law of 1905 really meets the needs and identity of French society in 2017.
-
It is of course not true that "Jews and Catholics apply these rules without making a fuss." The 1905 secularism law is deeply loathed by many communities in France, and also ignored by many. But the law is also selectively applied: Jews who wear a kippah or Sikhs who wear a turban are not targeted for discrimination in France in the same way that women who wear the hijab are.
because the above statement is so untrue, I'm afraid you have no idea what you'r talking about hence end of discussion for me .sorry.
-
Well please do take the time to educate me. I might return the favour. You must be aware, for instance, that the Law of 1905 was part of a war against the Catholic Church in France waged by a virulently anti-Catholic National Assembly,that it has repeatedly been condemned by the Vatican, and that it remains a battleground between Church and State - or at least, it was until very recently, when French politicians found it more expedient to turn the law against Muslims.
You must also be aware the the 2004 law banning religious symbols in public schools is enforced selectively, and overwhelmingly to the disadvantage of Muslim students. French Muslims perceive it as a calculated assault against their rights to be full members of the national community, and so far as I can see they are entirely correct. That is indeed what the law is intended to achieve: not to protect French secularism, but to force French Muslims to choose between being French and being Muslim.
-
I spent two weeks in France this year. Shockingly, the gay community is split there on Marine. It's almost a 50/50 split from those I talked to, and polling seems to confirm that Marine is scoring very will with the French gay community. Many opposed to Marine still oppose her father's views of homosexuality, while those who support her are frightened to death of Islam in France, as many gays are being openly harassed and beaten in France by Muslims, at the behest of Imams who openly preach violence against gays. Quite frankly, it's a weird situation, but many gays view that if Islam is allowed to continue to flourish in France that it'll lead to a gay Holocaust in France, while the other side believes Islam will moderate with time, and the Marines of French politics will lead them on a slow road to a gay Holocaust.
It's not an easy situation for gays in France right now, and yes, Muslim violence in France is a very serious issue. I got to meet several gays who were beaten by Muslims, the French government had to install barriers around the Eiffel Tower to prevent terrorism, and on my last night there, just a few blocks from the Eiffel Tower, several hundred Muslims lined the street, and made women run a gauntlet to get home, groping, assaulting, and robbing women there.
I haven't spent enough time in France to understand the full political dynamic, but the French clearly need to have an open conversation regarding secularism versus Islam, and like most Western countries with Christianity, demand that Islam, like all other religions, respect basic human rights. As an American, we're not perfect, but Christianity may not agree with gay rights, but they at least respect the human rights we've won. You won't see a social media post resulting in several hundred lining the streets to assault women here in the states as I did in France.
It's a very dangerous situation there right now, and honestly because this conversation isn't happening, I would not be shocked if France were to enter a state of Civil War in a decade. As for who to back in the French election, neither really appeals to me. Macron is more of the same as Hollande, which is deny the problem, don't have the conversation, while Marine is just deport Islam. Personally, I would lean slightly towards Marine, only because out of those two awful choices, Marine is the only choice where the conversation must happen.
-
the women Trump of France :cheers:
-
Without doubting the basic truth of your story, the obvious question that springs to mind is: "how do you know you've just been groped/beaten up/threatened by a Muslim? Are they carrying prayer-mats and showing off their circumcision-scars?"
This isn't just a frivolous question, because the French state's commitment to extreme secularism means that people are, officially, without religion for virtually all public purposes. The French state doesn't collect information about religious populations. It doesn't register members of religions. And at a time when certain religious communities are under extreme scrutiny and suffering systematic discrimination, this official "see-no-evil" attitude to all religious identities is ludicrously out of touch with what is actually going on.
It also means that "Muslims" tend to be conflated with "Arabs" in French public discourse. The two terms are interchangeable - and so racial prejudice and religious prejudice form a toxic combination in France in a way that they don't in most other Western European countries.
The other thing to note is that homophobic violence and sexual violence against women certainly aren't new phenomena in France, and they are certainly not the exclusive preserve of Muslims/Arabs/immigrants. France is a surprisingly conservative country, and the growing visibility of LGBT people (and a very bitter public debate over gay marriage) has led to an increase in homophobic violence that isn't directly related to Muslims or Arab immigrants. Or at least, it doesn't seem to be. If the French state gathered statistics on such matters, we might be able to tell for certain. Nor is sexual harassment of women a new phenomenon. The French government recently claimed that 100% of Parisian women who travel on public transport have experienced some form of unwelcome sexual behaviour from men. It is too easy simply to identify these kinds of crimes with visible minorities, when in fact they are deeply rooted in the culture of a country.
But I agree that France needs to have a sensible, adult debate about secularism and Islam. And it cannot do this while it tries to pretend that its minority communities don't exist, that the only identity that matters is French identity, and that radical secularism is necessary to keep the peace. The French state's attitude towards its own minorities needs to change, and the attitude of some minorities towards France needs to change too. This will have to happen sooner or later if the present deep divisions in French society are not to tear it apart. But voting for the Front national is not the way to bring those changes about. In my opinion, electing Marine Le Pen would be a very retrograde step that would exacerbate rather than relieve France's many very real problems.
-
The gay movement is manipulated by the left.
But leftists love their pet terrorists who shout "Allahu Akbar".50 dead gays in Orlando. But the problem is a "oppressor" WASP…
-
I hate politics. I'm gay, atheist and believe in science like climate change so I can't be accepted as a conservative. But I'm gay and refuse to support Muslims who gleefully slaughter our kind so I won't support liberals either. Can we scrap both movements and come up with some moderate party…one that believes in science and human rights but doesn't require you to support the people who want to slaughter you.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login