I don't think making gay marriage legal should be so important to us
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What this whole thread's argument is really about is a bunch of people with libertarian political philosophies wishing the government in the U.S. didn't wrap so manylegal rights, tax status, and frankly … life legal standing ... up with marriage itself, thus making a marriage license itself a legal license.
Unfortunately, it does. You're actually asking for a whole lot more that's way tougher to get done and change by saying you want government out of the business of marriage, period, than you would be if you just acknowledged reality as reality and simply asked to be treated the same as a heterosexual pairing and gain that legal word -- "marriage."
It was the path of least resistance, and honestly, there are few enough people on a cultural level in the U.S. to make your anti-government-involved-in-your-married-status stance a viewpoing of a clear minority. It might thrill you to your core when you talk about shrinking government, and it might make you tremble in excitement when you envision a world in which Uncle Sam is less of a presence in your lives .... but still, acknowledge reality and understand that you could pull 100 people in the country at random and teleport them into your living room right now, poll them all, and you're almost guaranteed to be in a CLEAR MINORITY with those viewpoints. Most people like the fact that marriage licenses are a thing. In a democratic republic, that means your deepest desires for the exact approach about how this thing would happen is probably NOT going to happen.
This whole argument boils down to a moot point about a hypothetical country that exists in another universe -- it's also a moot point now because we've already won the battle, it's the law of the land, and it's a done freakin' deal. We did it the easiest, most rapid way possible for us, and it was a giant stride towards equality. I wasn't about to wait for six more decades for a glorious Libertarian revolution to gain momentum so you types could have your cake and eat it too.
Why are we still talking about it?
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Why, though? The quickest route is just to say LET GAYS GET MARRIED. It's less complicated, and it also means an important cultural victory for us. It fixes all 1,001 laws of those little issues in one fell swoop, and ensures that the particularly uptight people in the societies in which we live are forced to adjust to a mainstreaming of us. It basically means that a homophobe's grandchildren are going to understand, a few decades from now, that we are a part of humanity and a certain ratio of gays, lesbians, gender-swapped, yadda yadda individuals in the general population is a NORMAL THING.
…you wouldn't achieve that cultural victory without fighting for the word. The word is important. I want the WORD "marriage." Fuck not getting it. Yes, it's important.
Yayyy!! Nicely said… I passionately agree with your line of argument. I never wish to get married, but I think that having the right to marry sends the right message about equality, and blurs the demarcation of gays as 'abnormal'.
In any case, I'm from a Malaysia, a country whereby Islam is the prevalent religion (although atheist myself), and there are anti-LGBT laws that make 70+ acts associated with homosexuality a crime here. I'm doubtful, but I hope that I will live to see the day when arguing for gay marriage is even on the table!
X
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I'm proudly part of " La manif pour tous" the big french movement against gay marriage.
gay marriage is only ( at least in france) requested by a tiny group among political gay association and they think they represent all LGBT . my ass ! they represent nothing, there is no "community" among gays in france. Because being gay or bi is just a characteristic like having blue eyes. there can't be a community based on eye color because the representation of the whole population is included in this characteristic. It means if you' r gay you can be from the left, extreme left, right, far right and so on.. Maybe it was different 40 years ago but now being gay is just as random as having curled hair in our modern occidental societies. Therefore those LGBT very politically engaged in left parties represent only gay who are indeed from the left and that's it. marriage was created by religion to make children. gays cant make children and most religion don't approve gays then why asking the right to " get married?" . Therefore civil union is great and is all that's needed and already exist.
Then again what I say here only works in rich occidental countries not 3rd nor 4th world countries. -
Maybe because it has something to do with certain privileges and rights that can only be acquired by getting married? Example, like, a gay couple want to stay together and raise a child, they need to show some sort of prove that indicates that they are married right? Don't we need to have a certain certificate or so in order to adopt children?
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Laws in most (western) countries have fit things so that gay relationships are not discriminated against financially
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always though that if the state recognizes civil unions and grants the couple all the rights as a straight married couple gets - then thats fine. But so many guys i spoke with on this says its not abt rights, its abt being equal. and i guess its not equal rights but rather equality to go abt getting those equal rights.
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In some ways though gay marriage can never be equal to straight marriage- those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
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In some ways though gay marriage can never be equal to straight marriage- those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
Hmmm…I don't know if having children is part of the equation, though. After all, there are many straight, married couples that are unable to biologically have children. Of course, they can adopt, but an unmarried, gay couple will have a much more difficult time adopting.
Anyway, not all gay couples that want to be married are interested in having children. I think it's probably more about the rights/privileges given to people who are married vs. the ones who aren't. Gay or not, a married couple would probably have a much easier time adopting a child than if they weren't.
If a gay person wants to live a married/suburban/picket fence life, I think they should be allowed to (of course, I think that's a very narrow way to view marriage). All people want is the legal rights and advantages that come along with the title, not to be just like every other married couple on the planet. Being married doesn't have to mean being tied down--it depends on what you and your partner want and expect from the relationship that can turn it into a ball and chain situation.
I also don't think gays are naive enough to think that marriage is some perfect world, either. You have to work to maintain a marriage, just as you have to work to maintain ANY type of human relationship. Straight couples are quite the testament to that--there are enough married, miserable straight couples and thrice-divorced singles in this world already. If you're not cut out for marriage, you're just not, and you don't have to pretend you are. However, I think there are many gays who ARE perfectly suited for marriage, and they should have that option.
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In some ways though gay marriage can never be equal to straight marriage- those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
Firstly. what on earth has marriage got to do with children?!
Secondly
those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
Not true, it is possible for 2 men to have a baby together which only has 0.00000000000000000000001% of the female donors DNA. Its just not legal yet. So you can't say they can never have children.
Again…
Marriage is the process by which two people make their relationship public, official, and permanent. It is the joining of two people in a bond. -
Firstly. what on earth has marriage got to do with children?!
It has everything to do with it as it defines the filiation, That's why millions of people went into the street against gay marriage not because they give a shit about 2 gays being together but because this opens the right to have children and it legally defines 2 guys as parents hence on official papers a kid would have 2 fathers or 2 mothers and not a male and female as "pro creators" It also opens doors to surrogacy which is terrible, women renting their womb for money is disgusting and far worst than prostitution.
Marriage is the process by which two people make their relationship public, official, and permanent. It is the joining of two people in a bond.
that is also not true at all in my country and I'm pretty sure that's the same in yours. A marriage is the legal foundation for building a family and defines inheritance from the filiation, child rights and such and it's defined as such in the legal text. Civil unions were made for that purpose.
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Firstly. what on earth has marriage got to do with children?!
It has everything to do with it as it defines the filiation, That's why millions of people went into the street against gay marriage not because they give a shit about 2 gays being together but because this opens the right to have children and it legally defines 2 guys as parents hence on official papers a kid would have 2 fathers or 2 mothers and not a male and female as "pro creators" It also opens doors to surrogacy which is terrible, women renting their womb for money is disgusting and far worst than prostitution.
Marriage is the process by which two people make their relationship public, official, and permanent. It is the joining of two people in a bond.
that is also not true at all in my country and I'm pretty sure that's the same in yours. A marriage is the legal foundation for building a family and defines inheritance from the filiation, child rights and such and it's defined as such in the legal text. Civil unions were made for that purpose.
WOW. The good old Russian propaganda machine has brainwashed you! Even makes the gays hate themselves. I feel so sorry for you.
Firstly. In the UK we had civil partnerships before marriage, which enabled you to adopt, surrogate etc etc. So marriage hasnt change anything.
Secondly, The legal definition of marriage at least in the UK has NEVER mentioned children. Even after religion hijacked marriage it was never mentioned.
Thirdly who the hell cares if a kid has 2 fathers or 2 mothers? As long as it is a loving family what difference does it make?!
Please show me where (apart from Russia - it doesn't count, it's not a normal place) it mentions anywhere that marriage is about children.
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Surely any definition of marriage which insisted on procreation would exclude any couple where the woman was post-menopause or any relationship where one or other of the people was infertile for whatever cause.
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No, because post menopausal women can have children (with drugs). Also it is a societal statement. This is the ideal forum (of course there are many dysfunctional straight marriages, infertile couples etc etc but as a model or general rule) for raising children. This is biology as well. Everyone should have a father and a mother. As has been said, surrogacy is often an awful process, and rips a child away from its natural mother.
Most gays don't want to get married, in my opinion. This is essentially rewriting society for the pleasure and privilege of a few self-entitled individuals.
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Laws in most (western) countries have fit things so that gay relationships are not discriminated against financially
It wasn't until the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of gay marriage that gay couples were treated equally under the law in many ways. The Veterans' Administration didn't provide any benefits to gay spouses or gay civil partners. Taxes were extremely complicated and required a tax lawyer and tax accountants for gay couples. HOWEVER, the laws across the US are still bigoted against gays in 32 states on many issues.
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The right should be there but I think it's mostly a farce anyway, with so many failed marriages, why would we want to follow down that same path!?
I believe in gay divorce rights just as much as straight divorce rights.
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In some ways though gay marriage can never be equal to straight marriage- those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
Firstly. what on earth has marriage got to do with children?!
Secondly
those 2 partners can never have kids together for example
Not true, it is possible for 2 men to have a baby together which only has 0.00000000000000000000001% of the female donors DNA. Its just not legal yet. So you can't say they can never have children.
Again…
Marriage is the process by which two people make their relationship public, official, and permanent. It is the joining of two people in a bond.Marriage was instituted so that there would be societal benefit for producing children in a monogamous hetero bond. Nothing else. It has 'evolved', into a disposable thing of really very little value, except wasting money and offending your friends whilst dozens of hangers on you barely know eat and drink themselves stupid at your expense.
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The right should be there but I think it's mostly a farce anyway, with so many failed marriages, why would we want to follow down that same path!?
I believe in gay divorce rights just as much as straight divorce rights.
How f'ing pointless
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