Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
-
NOTE: My comments are based on before the bailouts.
I've seen reference to Greece having some people retire at 53, but the average retirement age of 57. This was at the same time that the UK and Germany rose their retirement ages to 67. There is no way the Greek government could keep this up without fiddling the books.
Then you have the grey economies where most things were bought and sold illegally without paying taxes on them. Sales tax, VAT and other taxes are extremely important to governments. As an example, income tax in the UK only covers the welfare bill and nothing more. So every other source of tax is desperately needed.
Then there's the civil service who get paid as if they work a 15 to 18 month year, plus other outrageous work related benefits. In the UK, a similar thing was happening with the civil service, but the global economic crash helped fix some of that. Civil servants are still making about 17% more than people doing the same job in the private sector. That's down from 38% to 47% more.
++++
As I said previously, I only really knew about Greece since it was a major news topic here.
23% tax on food is extremely high. In the UK (and the US) most food is tax free or severely reduced taxes. Luxury foods being the obvious exceptions.
Only certain places in the UK, like London have congestion charges. It varies by place, but some places charge everyone except mass transit, taxis and electric cars, while others charge everyone except mass transit. Some places exempt employees of local firms.
Also, car insurance is a weird thing. It can be extremely high depending on where you live, your age and your job.
-
They charge 80 SEK per day for a hospital stay plus I think around 2500 SEK for drugs. That low cost is maintained by the tax system. Their VAT is the highest in the world. As for the cars, very few people actually use them on a day to day basis. Their mass transit system is great and about 75% of people who live in Copenhagen walk or ride a bike everywhere. Car insurance is not absolutely necessary. There has not been any sarcastic remarks, only factual statements. You think 62 is high for a retirement, which is interesting. There is no possible way that you are going to convince me that you pay more taxes than either the UK, Sweden, Denmark or Norway. Especially when you have not provided any sources to that effect because none exist. The aforementioned countries in southern Europe have never superpowers nor have they ever been completely solvent. The credit ratings speak to that effect.
I have places in both the U.S. and Sweden. In California, every time I eat at a restaurant, I am charged 8,75% plus a 20% gratuity if you don't want them to spit in your food next time. The tax does differ county to county in California; however, it is mostly the same. Since you do not customarily leave a gratuity in Europe, it is actually cheaper than the U.S. or at least in California. 20% + 8,75% is 1,0875 * 1,2000 = 1,305 or 30,5%. All food items are taxed unless you go to Subway or some items in the supermarket.
Scandinavians seem to be a very contented people. I believe evidence of this can substantiated by their low violent crime.
Murders per 100.000
| Country | Rate | Population |
| Liechtenstein | 0,0 | 36.925 |
| Monaco | 0,0 | 37.831 |
| Iceland | 0,3 | 323.002 |
| Japan | 0,3 | 127.300.000 |
| Sweden | 0,7 | 9.593.000 |
| Denmark | 0,8 | 5.614.000 |
| Germany | 0,8 | 80.620.000 |
| Netherlands | 0,9 | 16.800.000 |
| United Kingdom | 1,0 | 64.100.000 |
| France | 1,0 | 62.814.000 |
| Oman | 1,1 | 3.632.000 |
| Qatar | 1,1 | 2.169.000 |
| Australia | 1,1 | 23.130.000 |
| Portugal | 1,2 | 10.460.000 |
| Bosnia and Herzegovina | 1,3 | 3.829.000 |
| Tajikstan | 1,6 | 8.208.000 |
| Finland | 1,6 | 5.439.000 |
| Libya | 1,7 | 6.202.000 |
| Greece | 1,7 | 11.030.000 | -
I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)… I do not aim to convince you that our taxes are higher than yours... tho comparatively you have benefits and higher salaries (which is normal), I was pointing that the situation was far from easy as you labeled it. And if you stopped and actually researched you'd know that in some countries you can't drive a car which is not insured, it's illegal.
-
And if you stopped and actually researched you'd know that in some countries you can't drive a car which is not insured, it's illegal.
You have misquoted me. Why would you have need of car insurance if you do not drive. I stated that 75% of the people walked or rode a bicycle instead of using a car or they use a form of mass transportation. Although this is not the case everywhere in the country, it is true for major cities there. I am certain insurance is required in all first world countries, that goes without saying. I am also quite certain that the driving laws here are much stringent. Driving with a blood alcohol concentration greater than 0,02% will earn you 6 months imprisonment. In Germany there is absolutely zero tolerance. New drivers will have their license revoked.
U.S.
First - $13,500.00 (£8.880,00) and it remains on your driving record for 10 years
Second - $28,000.00 (18.420,00)
Third - $50,000.00 (£32.890,00) -
I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)
I started working at 7yo doing a paper route and haven't stopped working since. What age should the government give me my state pension?
Lot's of Americans get jobs while in school, but their retirement age is 5 years later than yours.
I'm 47 now and I'll be retiring at 71.
-
The Grey Market in southern Europe, especially Greece, Cyprus and Malta.
http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/themes/07_shadow_economy.pdf
I highlighted countries in red where the actual amount is the greatest even though the percentage is not at the top but near the top. Romania, Estonia and Latvia has very small economies, whose gray economies poses little damage.
| Country | Size of shadow economy (% of GDP) | Undeclared work (% of GDP) |
|
| Romania | 29.1 | 16-21 |
| Lithuania | 28.5 | 16-18 |
| Estonia | 28.2 | 7-8 |
| Latvia | 26.4 | 18 |
| Cyprus | 25.6 | 4.2 |
| Malta | 25.3 | 25 |
| Poland | 24.4 | 12-15 |
| Greece | 24.0 | 25 |
| Slovenia | 23.6 | 17 |
| Hungary | 22.5 | 15-20 |
| Italy | 21.6 | 12 |
| Portugal | 19.4 | 5 |
| Spain | 19.4 | 12 |
| Belgium | 16.8 | 6-10 |
| Czech Republic | 16.0 | 9-10 |
| Slovakia | 15.5 | 13-15 |
| EA-17 (weighted average) | 15 | 8 |
| Sweden | 14.3 | 5 |
| Denmark | 13.4 | 3 |
| Germany | 13.3 | 7 |
| Finland | 13.3 | 4.2 |
| United Kingdom | 10.1 | 2 | -
Possibly.
But out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.Since when did listing facts become slimy? Everything I posted was a fact and is a fact corroborated by verifiable sources. Don't blame me for the current situation in the European Union. Euro tumbles even further to below $1.20, to end the day at $1.1963, £0.7817. :afr: :cry2:
Bloomberg - Euro Extends Slide on ECB Outlook
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-04/euro-extends-slide-as-japan-resumes-n-z-stocks-advance.htmlSorry sir, but you are an economic dunce. The reason for having the S European countries in the Euro is to lower the value of the Euro, making German and other European products more competitive, otherwise a very high Euro would make German industry uncompetitive. This is all about improving German trade. The Euro has done nothing for the long term improvement of the economies of Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. All 4 are heading towards Latin American style inequality and indeed, mass poverty. This is the legacy of the Eurozone in those countries. True corrupt politicians in those countries collaborated in the devastation of Southern Europe, but so did corrupt banks throwing away vast amounts of money in loans which could never be repaid. Those banks ought to pay some of their obligations. A clue: none of the money given to S Europe is going to the people of N Europe. It is all going to the corrupt banks of N Europe. And the people of S Europe are in a WORSE situation than before the bailouts. Another note to economic illiterates: if your economy is constantly shrinking, then you can never pay back debt. Greece's debt situation is now WORSE than before the bailouts. Despite the massive poverty, health crisis and food shortages. Please read a book or something, economic illiterates, before you stink out this forum with your fatuous ignorance and stupidity.
-
There are structural problems in the PIGS countries, no doubt. The tax situation must be improved. The Swiss banks must be accountable and transparent. Global companies must pay their fair share of tax. Its not the fault of the Northern European people that the situation in the south is so dire. However the governments of Germany (in particular) and also the boffins of Brussels are evil. They, for the sake of expediency, have sentenced the people of Greece to a new servitude. Greece should have just defaulted. And they still can. And as far as Germany is concerned, why is it that a nation can invade Europe and then have the power to sentence some of the same countries to penury? Germany has never compensated the nations it invaded. When is Germany going to stop exploiting its neighbours? The whole Eurozone was never in S Europe's interest, only German industry and bankers. 'Bailouts' have done nothing for Greece, only made things worse. Stop throwing good money after bad.
-
I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)
I started working at 7yo doing a paper route and haven't stopped working since. What age should the government give me my state pension?
Lot's of Americans get jobs while in school, but their retirement age is 5 years later than yours.
I'm 47 now and I'll be retiring at 71. 0
Are you really comparing delivering newspapers to working in a factory or doing servants work? That and yes Matie is right the amount of economical idiocy in this posts is astronomical and based on exploitation of debt, and giving statistics that are about the outcomes to paint a bad image of countries argh… well I did not even wanted to look at this thread again but i'll pin point one thing, as bad as he might paint them in terms of murders and so on, those countries had not lunatics going on murdering children as his so civilized countries have. 0 :cry2:
-
I am not comparing paper routes to working in factories.
I simply said I started working at 7yo doing a paper route. I didn't even mention my other job of cutting peoples' grass. Yeah, I eventually went on to work in factories and other jobs while in school.
So there is still no justification for the Southern European countries to retire so much earlier than the rest of the west.
Also, who created the debt problems in the SE countries?! YEP, it was the people that participated in and benefitted from the grey economies. If you guys lived realistically and paid your taxes, like the rest of the west, then your countries wouldn't be hurting so much.
Everywhere in the world, corporations are avoiding paying taxes, but only the countries with massive grey economies are failing.
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
-
I am not comparing paper routes to working in factories.
I simply said I started working at 7yo doing a paper route. I didn't even mention my other job of cutting peoples' grass. Yeah, I eventually went on to work in factories and other jobs while in school.
So there is still no justification for the Southern European countries to retire so much earlier than the rest of the west.
Also, who created the debt problems in the SE countries?! YEP, it was the people that participated in and benefitted from the grey economies. If you guys lived realistically and paid your taxes, like the rest of the west, then your countries wouldn't be hurting so much.
Everywhere in the world, corporations are avoiding paying taxes, but only the countries with massive grey economies are failing.
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it. -
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
The resentment is not towards the people, it's towards the fact that instead of charging and agreeing on a low interest tax, THERE IS A HUGE EXPLOITATION on it, on the interest tax of a national debt that might keep a country subservient… the resentment is with the governments.
-
Well we will see in the next months if Greece can actually turn around, make good on their promises and institute real change. Because right now it is just war with words from Syriza, we haven't actually seen results and only time will tell if he is really that good.
The only thing this has accomplished successfully is put mistrust on both parties (Europe and Greece).
-
Do you think this will weaken the Euro currency or may bring economic problems in Germany?
-
This is all about bailing about the banks. No banks or bankers (rhymes with wanker) have received any punishment for their quasi-criminal activities.
-
Do you think this will weaken the Euro currency or may bring economic problems in Germany?
The Euro was weakened by the oil price fall, for what the markets say, the greece decision actually made the euro stronger, now it's all about time as someone said… And Germany caused all it's problems really their stability is created artificially, no salary raises, no fixing ruined infrastructures, no spend Merkel, no buy anything from the outside, export export export, guess what if there is noone to buy german things because they don't buy anything back, then their products won't get bought and they won't get revenue... they finance themselves at 0% interest tax when they do not need that but force countries that need that to pay debts to pay them with a huge interest, it's all about keeping banking and whatever afloat... some countries were porrly managed for ages, but this is happening now because of the banking collapse.
-
It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it.It's not just the rich in Greece that aren't paying ALL of the taxes they are supposed to.
A big part of the agreement to extend the bailout was that your (Greece's) new government would do more to stamp out the grey (black market) economies.
-
Nice discussion here.
-
It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it.It's not just the rich in Greece that aren't paying ALL of the taxes they are supposed to.
A big part of the agreement to extend the bailout was that your (Greece's) new government would do more to stamp out the grey (black market) economies.
The lower classes are paying their taxes. I am living in Greece so you would allow me to know better.
And for those taxes that are not payed as they should have… well, i am not an economist expert but it is quite hard to pay any kind of obligation if there is any kind of income.
There is a lot of unemploynment and these guys cannot pay their obligations since they do not have any kind of income to do so.
The only thing that i will agree with your quote is the black market thing which indeed is a field that requires more extensive caring. -
Bueeeeeeeeenos días a todos.
Me presento rápidamente, mi nombre es José, soy ESPAÑOL y tengo 35 años.
Leyendo un poco por encima algunos post anteriores estoy, francamente preocupado. Que verdaderamente haya gente que se cree lo que le cuentan sus telediarios es muy muy triste. Que a día de hoy con la información que disponemos tengamos a "vecinos" diciendo que no se pagan impuestos, que nos jubilamos pronto y todo lo leído anteriormente es para que se lo hagan mirar. Es como si yo dijera que el problema de estar donde estamos es por culpa de hacer caso a Europa, que en muchos casos es cierto, pero claro hablar de Europa es una utopía. ¿Que es Europa?. Cuando me respondáis a esa pregunta seguimos con el debate, que verdaderamente me parece bueno y apasionante para todos. El debatir y el aprender siempre es bueno.Por cierto, para los que se las dan de salvadores me atrevo a daros un consejo que nosotros no hicimos. No hagáis caso de lo que os cuentan vuestros políticos y vuestros telediarios (noticias) y empezaros a preocuparos por vuestros planes de pensiones, que en muchísimos casos están invertidos en bancos y empresas Españolas, por si no lo sabíais.
Mi más sincero reconocimiento y animo para la compañera que escribe por aquí y es Griega, que seguramente ella entienda lo que estoy diciendo.
Un placer hablar con vosotr@s con el respeto que todos nos merecemos.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login