Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
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As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
I do understand your point let that be clear, but when you have an ageing population and you extend the reform age, it also means there will be no jobs for the youth, which means that there will be no people to pay those ageing people reforms… so do you understand how that snowball and backfires on some specific countries? (not greece case they were crazy)
This countries have issues with the ones bailing them out because in part it was their fault too, not those particular ones sometimes but the whole UE mess, and what some countries have said and refer to them as PIGS, EVEN THO these PIGS helped bail some of those countries out. If you are humiliated when you just helped someone that is humiliating you, how do you see that person? Also The rating agencies mess? Really, this crisis was a circus, everyone knew it was bound to happen, noone did a thing until it exploded, and that is the usual process in the UE.
BUT yeah you've got it right it was some of those countries fault too for allowing the grey economy, it would take a revolution, most likely not like Ukraine, but yes ...
I see lots of people simplefying this matter, it means that in some of these countries people are in the streets, because thereare no jobs, they lost their houses, they lost their medical care... so never simplefy what might be a tragedy for others.
How does a country fund it's state pension when people work as long as they are retired (based on average life expectancy)? That's unsustainable, to say the very least. The bailed out countries need to build their economies, not lower their retirement age to compensate.
I'm very anti EU, so you are preaching to the choir about them. HOWEVER, you can't lay all the blame on the EU. The grey economies had nothing to do with the EU.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
What are you stating is true but that is for the old generation of greeks.
The current generation, the one I live, has to face the sins of the older generation in every conceivable way.
I am a nurse and our health system suffers from the lack of financial resources, we are working overtime which we are not paid. The stuff also suffers from the lack of personell. Weare paying our taxes, the low citizens that is, we are paying our bills. And let's not touch the subject of unemployment. Many of us have degrees and diplomas only to decorate the walls of our houses.
For this generation of greeks, a small amount of respect must be shown.
We are trying and i think it is pretty unfair to blame this generation for the sins of the old.My comments weren't blaming your generation, but were to show why we are where we are.
The working generation(s) is the one that always has to suffer for the sins of the previous generations. No country is unique in this.
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I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
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Could you tell me when exactly Greece bailed out Germany? I don't ever remeber Germany being broke, except after WWII, and even then the rest of Europe was in worse shape then they were. America and the UK funneled money through the rest of Europe. When has the UK ever need to be bailed out or the U.S. for that matter?
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We didn't had anything to do with helping Germany.
We did helped other countries.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/08/08/greece-offers-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza-strip/ -
Lack of memory much huh… just check the news in the 70's and see how germany was doing... and where the mney came from to help it
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics. -
Possibly.
But out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.Since when did listing facts become slimy? Everything I posted was a fact and is a fact corroborated by verifiable sources. Don't blame me for the current situation in the European Union. Euro tumbles even further to below $1.20, to end the day at $1.1963, £0.7817. :afr: :cry2:
Bloomberg - Euro Extends Slide on ECB Outlook
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-04/euro-extends-slide-as-japan-resumes-n-z-stocks-advance.html -
Ever since you practically rose your foot and stepped upon the efforts of my country to improve it's economy and you have showed openly your disgust toward Greece.
Whatever you like it, Greece is doing to fix the mistakes of the past, it's improved ever since the program first initiated and even Germany has admitted that.
Angela Merkel has expressed her acceptance for the so called grexit if the opposing political from our goverment party takes over (it is a party that has expressed their mind toward Merkel). As long as the Goverment stands, we are not going anywhere. -
The opposition party will always say that they can do better and will not disappoint you. Maybe, they are in this mess because the citizens actually believe the propaganda that is fed to them. Why should these people be any less corrupt? Angela Merkel would never denounce your government openly as that would be in poor taste and not politically beneficial to any Greeks living in Germany. Cubans wanted the U.S. to remove Batista from office, which they did with the Brigada and installed Castro and look what happened there. America was like, "oh Cuba, we are your friend", whilst only really overthrowing Batista because it suits them to do so. It is not a problem with Greece in particular, it is any government in Europe acting like an anchor on the growth of responsible countries, which at the current time is Greece, Cyprus and Spain to name a few.
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.I don't see him being "slimy" but wanting to create discussions/debate.
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
I think most politicians should be sent to prison for treason, for what they have done to their individual countries. This also includes the money grubbing MEPs in the EU.
The Euro is a massive failure, which is harming the UK's economy and well being, as we have to keep bailing it out. I'm sure it's harming most other countries that have involvement in it.
In the UK, business rates (taxes simply for existing as a business) are strangling small mom and pop sized businesses. Major shopping areas are turning into ghost towns. Retail property owners find they are better off tax wise keeping their shops empty, than renting them out.
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.I don't see him being "slimy" but wanting to create discussions/debate.
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
I think most politicians should be sent to prison for treason, for what they have done to their individual countries. This also includes the money grubbing MEPs in the EU.
The Euro is a massive failure, which is harming the UK's economy and well being, as we have to keep bailing it out. I'm sure it's harming most other countries that have involvement in it.
In the UK, business rates (taxes simply for existing as a business) are strangling small mom and pop sized businesses. Major shopping areas are turning into ghost towns. Retail property owners find they are better off tax wise keeping their shops empty, than renting them out.
He could have done that without insulting a very sensitive matter regarding my country's efforts to get out of it's economic turbulance.
He practically depicted Greece as a money sacking leech. -
You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
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You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
First of all, that is what he finds offensive, the bold part, do you think it was easy… you have no clue... the unemployement, the massive poverty, the struggling with 3 jobs? The majority of cash went to the banks it never reached to help the people, yes because under those numbers there are faces and lifes destroyed. Do not ever say we got it easy, because it wasn't and it isn't. Two thirds of the active youth fled the country to survive, you label that easy? And now imagine seeing the way the government spends money like if there was no tomorrow... a elected government with less than 10% of the population votes, it's a circus, it's all a huge joke... and we're just waiting to put them all in jail. Now how is the people responsible for that bad management again?
Belgium in that list, you obviously do not know how they were just about to be rescued some years ago when the whole mess was on, Norway has oil so surely it is where it is.
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who do not know how easy they had it./quote]
I don't see that as offensive. I see that as absolutely correct.
Notice that it is past tense, not present tense. He's referring to before the bailouts.
We already talked about this; ie the gray economies where people didn't pay taxes on goods and services, extremely early retirements, etc, etc.
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who do not know how easy they had it.
Notice that it is past tense, not present tense. He's referring to before the bailouts.
We already talked about this; ie the gray economies where people didn't pay taxes on goods and services, extremely early retirements, etc, etc.
That was not the case to all the countries before stated… 62 was extremely early? The average of people started working at 11 to 14 remeber that, we reformed this country after the 70's from almost nothing to average, the finances took hard times surely, but in all other areas it was a huge leap. And I am sorry we had our taxes at least in PT at level of europe with a fraction of your salaries, less than a third and we managed with prices climbing to almost the same... I get that argument for others but for us is a bit off, our current tax is around 23% for most food. (most restoration has trouble handling it)
Imagine doing your life with 525€ month, where most housing goes for 300€ minimum, and you have to pay all the bills taxes and buy food. Granted you can get a double job and with luck get to 1200€ with a partner and all. This was what we dealed with before, now the housing is 500€ the salaries are less and the taxes cut half your pay basically. The people had nothing to do with the grey economics in PT that is all our government spending on "personal"
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If Greece is a democracy, then it is the people's responsibility to elect who they want. When the political don't do what you want, you vote them out. Germans are not voting in Grecian elections; therefore, it is your responsibility for the way things are in your country. Accept your hand in current situation. Either you, as a people allowed it to happen by not participating or you elected corrupt politicians. Every countries has them so stop acting as if you are the only people who have had it rough. Imagine that someone else has been using your social security income that was meant for you. You would be righteously upset. That is exactly what has happened. Taxpayers money has been diverted to other countries who were irresponsible. If these countries want sovereignty, they need to take responsibility for their actions and not blame other countries. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have sovereignty to make your own decisions, then blame others when it goes awry. A simple fact of the matter is that other countries have been managing for some time now. It is not about natural resources or size. Scandinavia has freezing weather, is too close to Russia for my taste and is quite small, yet they manage. The UK has terrible weather, is the size of the state of Oregon and pays £1.34 per litre of petrol and they are not complaining. I believe you even have to pay a congestion tax CCAP upon gas guzzling vehicle of £10.50/day. Car insurance will run you approximately £5,000/year. They have a value added tax of 20%, which is still belows Sweden's of 25%. The cost of living is much higher there.
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/paying-the-congestion-chargeAnother simple fact is that people don't like paying for other people's messes. 62 years old is earlier than most countries. 23% tax is low for me anyway and I bet for the UK as well.
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You have benefits for those taxes tho, how much do you pay from hospital and medical care again? Buying a car means paying three times it's price, we have the insurance and the normal buying tax and a tax just to put the car on a public road. And our social security income was used to rescue banks so ahem…
Look I do not want to come across as whining... but unless you actually lived in some of those places you do not know where the money went and how enrage the people was at the spending... like the euro 2004 and the tgv idea...
Imagine scandinavian crowned houses spending 10 times what they spend now... sounds hilarious right? Now live with it for a decade or two.
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You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
You were the one who downlooked the efforts of Greece.
And in every thread you have saw a reply of mine you have replied with a sarcastic manner. I simply talked back in the same manner.
So you should reconsider the whole ''personal attack'' thing. -
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I believe this was not your intention, but this could never be an emotionless debate, you are talking about the lifes of people ruined, entire generations in poverty… they are not numbered statistics that go up or down in a screen.
And the thought those lifes ruin is used to liven up a forum is utterly insulting.
And I believe you did not meant this but be aware of how it could be interpreted.
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NOTE: My comments are based on before the bailouts.
I've seen reference to Greece having some people retire at 53, but the average retirement age of 57. This was at the same time that the UK and Germany rose their retirement ages to 67. There is no way the Greek government could keep this up without fiddling the books.
Then you have the grey economies where most things were bought and sold illegally without paying taxes on them. Sales tax, VAT and other taxes are extremely important to governments. As an example, income tax in the UK only covers the welfare bill and nothing more. So every other source of tax is desperately needed.
Then there's the civil service who get paid as if they work a 15 to 18 month year, plus other outrageous work related benefits. In the UK, a similar thing was happening with the civil service, but the global economic crash helped fix some of that. Civil servants are still making about 17% more than people doing the same job in the private sector. That's down from 38% to 47% more.
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As I said previously, I only really knew about Greece since it was a major news topic here.
23% tax on food is extremely high. In the UK (and the US) most food is tax free or severely reduced taxes. Luxury foods being the obvious exceptions.
Only certain places in the UK, like London have congestion charges. It varies by place, but some places charge everyone except mass transit, taxis and electric cars, while others charge everyone except mass transit. Some places exempt employees of local firms.
Also, car insurance is a weird thing. It can be extremely high depending on where you live, your age and your job.
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