Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
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I disagree with the Uk… the Uk is ok because it has the pound this situation would be intolerable for them if they had the euro also... some of these countries have the material resources they are just poorly managed by a corrupted political mass, thi is just now a wait for the euro to burst and countries to regain soveraignty... then reconstruction might take place, however it would have been better to have finished the euro in 2008.
It is as raphjd said, "The UK has the Pound which it maintains by itself". Those countries which adopted the Euro, did so because they couldn't afford to maintain their own. Spain is bankrupt, Greece is bankrupt and Portugal and France are on their way there. Italy has more corrupt prime ministers with more sex scandals than the Queen Mother has had birthdays. The supposed sovreignty with which you speak is only recognised when you can take care of your $%W :afr: internal affairs so to speak. Switzerland still has their CHF, Sweden has the SEK, Denmark has the DKK and the UK has the GBP, which they have to pay to keep their currency for being part of the Eurozone. I think they (non-Euro countries) should let them fall on their bums, then see what happens.
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… I'm almost speechless, you think they could not maintain their own? Was there a crysis when the euro was implemented? How can you backup such affirmation, that is several layers of economical ignorance, ever seen the stats pre the EU mess? Most of those countries were way more stable. The euro as currency does not allow for the natural inflation or deflation process that stabilises and is stabilising the others... countries with their own currency have less pressure put on them and that is that. Some of those countries like Spain Portugal Ireland and France should have left in 2008, granted they'd feel a major fall but they had the structure to hold it and get up in a decade (just like sweden did), nowadays after the FMI some of them don't, and it's all a time tick until default... you think that the UE is actually managing this better than the sovereign countries would? That is blindness... just check the real numbers and not the modules, because numbers do not lie.
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… I'm almost speechless, you think they could not maintain their own? Was there a crysis when the euro was implemented? How can you backup such affirmation, that is several layers of economical ignorance, ever seen the stats pre the EU mess? Most of those countries were way more stable. The euro as currency does not allow for the natural inflation or deflation process that stabilises and is stabilising the others... countries with their own currency have less pressure put on them and that is that. Some of those countries like Spain Portugal Ireland and France should have left in 2008, granted they'd feel a major fall but they had the structure to hold it and get up in a decade (just like sweden did), nowadays after the FMI some of them don't, and it's all a time tick until default... you think that the UE is actually managing this better than the sovereign countries would? That is blindness... just check the real numbers and not the modules, because numbers do not lie.
Everyone lies. Spain has always been a mess, along with Greece and Portugal. Italy has gone through more government and regime changes than my sister's hairstyles. Sex scandal this, Corrupt Prime Minister here, screwing anything that moves, Mussolini and fascism. Spain has never been nor will be a superpower. They have created Tesoro Publico to bankroll the government because they are broke. France is the only half way stable country and they had to raise the retirement age 5 years and increase the work week. Sweden, by the way, is the only free-standing socialist government has been successful. They are not feckless oafs who compalin about 35 hour work weeks and bitching about their temps de loisir. Your country is only as good as what you can export or what you can attract. One thing I don't like about Sweden is that they allow to many immigrant leeches, especially from southern Europe in. 75% of crime committed in Sweden is perpetrated by foreigners according to the OSAC office crime and safety. That's why Norway shuts their borders to them. Scandinavia is at the top of the Human Development Index charts. The US and the UK are prime examples of sovereign nations who are superpowers. Even a second-world country like China is doing better than the Eurozone.
"Crysis" is spelled "crisis"
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Isn't there a mod to lock this preposterous thread?
It is insulting to every Spanish and Greek member of this forum. -
Can we just state how exactly is your pay rate and taxes proportional to prices for housing and basic food needs in such countries due to the mess the UE made? You are forgetting that most of us need to have double jobs, truth is we are not having 35 Hours of labour but most likely the double… and you get quotas for production, so alas most of our production is wasted... imagine we had a lax on quotas so one could sell and compete fairly in the market... who would buy expensive 2nd class products when you could get 1st class cheaper products? It's on the "good and well" countries interest to keep the Euro too, just because it keeps everything in a tight subservient way, that is why switzerland never cared, that is why norway never cared.
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In Sweden, there is a minimum municipality tax rate of 28.89 per cent (Vellinge) to 34.32 per cent (Hofors).
National income taxes
None on income up to SEK 413,200
20 per cent on 413,201 to 591,600
25 per cent on income over 591,600Income from capital
30 per cent (state tax)Corporate income tax
22 per centhttps://sweden.se/society/why-swedes-are-okay-with-paying-taxes/
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So what?
This thread is very insulting because the people of BOTH Spain and Greece have been making many sacrifices in order to pay all these taxes and cuts that Troika has forced us.
I get it, you do not like Greece, and possibly you do not like Spain, as well but everyone has acknowledged that both of these countries have made whatever it is humanly (and not) possible in order to recover and this is something that even the politicians of Germany have acknowledged.
I really want a mod to step in and lock this thread. It is downlooking a very sensitive matter of my country and other crisis stricken countries and it is handled in a very disrespectful manner. -
I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
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3800 Americans gave up their American passports last year and moved to Switzerland because of America's overreaching tax laws. They double tax on just about everything. Dividends are doubly taxed. They tax dividends payed and dividends received.
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
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So what?
This thread is very insulting because the people of BOTH Spain and Greece have been making many sacrifices in order to pay all these taxes and cuts that Troika has forced us.
I get it, you do not like Greece, and possibly you do not like Spain, as well but everyone has acknowledged that both of these countries have made whatever it is humanly (and not) possible in order to recover and this is something that even the politicians of Germany have acknowledged.
I really want a mod to step in and lock this thread. It is downlooking a very sensitive matter of my country and other crisis stricken countries and it is handled in a very disrespectful manner.Sorry to say that, but some "new" posters here in the forums have a strange way to communicate with the GTru - users. An enormous amount of spam, nonsense and absolut useless stuff is posted and quoted, just to gain some seed points - and as if this wouldn't be enough, they celebrate themselfs by completely ignoring netiquette and judge about all and everything, without thinking about the consequences.
YES, Minerboh80 - you are right, there should be a mod to take care of such posts and I definitely would like to donate into an I-poste-only-because-I-want-to-grab-seedpoints-pot, to get rid of these posts, but unfortunately this might never happen, because it seems to be funny for some posters to insult people and it seems to be as well funny for some readers. :afr2:
Well… juhuuuuuu... you won! It absolutely does not amuse me anymore to read stuff here in the GTru - forums. I will take a break for a while and I will visit the forums again in a few weeks, to see if there might be any changes.
![😕](https://community.gaytor.rent/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/apple/1f615.png?v=57695cee877 ":-\")
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Sorry to say that, but some "new" posters here in the forums have a strange way to communicate with the GTru - users. An enormous amount of spam, nonsense and absolut useless stuff is posted and quoted, just to gain some seed points - and as if this wouldn't be enough, they celebrate themselfs by completely ignoring netiquette and judge about all and everything, without thinking about the consequences.
YES, Minerboh80 - you are right, there should be a mod to take care of such posts and I definitely would like to donate into an I-poste-only-because-I-want-to-grab-seedpoints-pot, to get rid of these posts, but unfortunately this might never happen, because it seems to be funny for some posters to insult people and it seems to be as well funny for some readers. :afr2:
This posts are popular because people find them mostly ignorant and feel the need to explain somethings, however i already felt that and feel this is mostly on the bound of a faux pas like trolling.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
I do understand your point let that be clear, but when you have an ageing population and you extend the reform age, it also means there will be no jobs for the youth, which means that there will be no people to pay those ageing people reforms… so do you understand how that snowball and backfires on some specific countries? (not greece case they were crazy)
This countries have issues with the ones bailing them out because in part it was their fault too, not those particular ones sometimes but the whole UE mess, and what some countries have said and refer to them as PIGS, EVEN THO these PIGS helped bail some of those countries out. If you are humiliated when you just helped someone that is humiliating you, how do you see that person? Also The rating agencies mess? Really, this crisis was a circus, everyone knew it was bound to happen, noone did a thing until it exploded, and that is the usual process in the UE.
BUT yeah you've got it right it was some of those countries fault too for allowing the grey economy, it would take a revolution, most likely not like Ukraine, but yes ...
I see lots of people simplefying this matter, it means that in some of these countries people are in the streets, because thereare no jobs, they lost their houses, they lost their medical care... so never simplefy what might be a tragedy for others.
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
This is why I posted in previous why Swedes, Danes and Norwegian are ok with high taxes. Nobody wants to give out a free lunch. There is something to be said for the countries that have been doing a decent job keeping their affairs in order and the people who have been supporting via the tax structure. Those countries would be even worse than they are now if nobody bailed them out, but you cannot punish the citizens because the people in charge are corrupt. That's why they were bailed out. When the American government bailed out the banks, Americans were furious, but the economy would have been in an even worse condition had they not done so. They couldn't punish the hard working Americans for the transgressions of absconding banks.
As the points forum posts, I wouldn't care if they removed it. In fact, I am for removing it, if it pleases the staff. I just like the banter of the forums. :love:
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
What are you stating is true but that is for the old generation of greeks.
The current generation, the one I live, has to face the sins of the older generation in every conceivable way.
I am a nurse and our health system suffers from the lack of financial resources, we are working overtime which we are not paid. The stuff also suffers from the lack of personell. Weare paying our taxes, the low citizens that is, we are paying our bills. And let's not touch the subject of unemployment. Many of us have degrees and diplomas only to decorate the walls of our houses.
For this generation of greeks, a small amount of respect must be shown.
We are trying and i think it is pretty unfair to blame this generation for the sins of the old. -
First, no one is required to give you anything. You don't demand respect, you earn respect. It is not Germany's fault that the Grecian politicians are corrupt and don't seem to care about their constituents as you say. All of the reasons that you mention are nobody else's fault. This still doesn't change the fact that other Europeans countries should not have to foot Greece's debt bill. It is as raphjd said. Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
@raphjd:As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
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First, no one is required to give you anything. You don't demand respect, you earn respect. It is not Germany's fault that the Grecian politicians are corrupt and don't seem to care about their constituents as you say. All of the reasons that you mention are nobody else's fault. This still doesn't change the fact that other Europeans countries should not have to foot Greece's debt bill. It is as raphjd said. Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
@raphjd:As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
Oh, please, my ''dear'' one. Don't be so obvious.
I got the point that you don't like Greece.
The greeks have earned the right for some respect because they are trying to correct the mistakes of the past.
Even Merkell has admitted that. She said it herself.
Now, if you do not respect the fact that we are trying, then you are not anymore ''right'' than the ones you try to downgrade.
I didn't ''demand'' anything, i simply asked. There is a major difference between asking and demand. You can't see it?
How about you that you? You are demading from the rest of the users to have a negative point of view for poor countries, especially Greece.
Let me tell you, whatever you believe it or not, that not all Greeks are corrupted or lazy or money shacking leeches that you try so desperately to pass us by.
These countries decided to show th better part of themselves when they decided to help us, Greece helped many times, in WW2, in humanitarian crises and others.
Tell me, nordicblue, what does make you when you are trying to downgrade the efforts all the greek citizens have made these past years? -
Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
:haha: Do you think it would be without consequence that those enter in bankrupt? Ever heard of domino effect… the whole EU would have collapsed specially with Italy and France involved... if you get your buyers without money they can't buy you stuff so you lose money... if you get the guys who make your clothes and technology bankrupt, you are not getting that either... if you take the ones who are producing most of your food... Learn a bit about the complexity of the issue please... the EU bailed because it had too also, luck had nothing to do on the matter.
Plus in our case we are so thankful that you make us pay almost the double amout we owned just in interests, while germany can get money at 0% tax...
This is not saying that people should not be thankful, but get down of your high horse this is business it helps all the interested.
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Germany, Norway and The UK are the only reason why most of Europe survives. Poorer countries like Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, and France joined to strengthen their economies. Germany, Norway and the UK are now the richest countries in the Eurozone. Greece is 43rd, Italy is 8th, France is 6th, Spain is 44th and Turkey isn't worth mentioning although I just did. Norway has a thriving oil industry, cobalt, iron ore and many natural resources, along with being the best place to incorporate. I think those countries only have themselves to blame. :cry2:
What? Norway is not even a member of the European Union. I think you need to check your sources and stop making up rankings:
! 4 Germany 3,635,959
5 France 2,807,306
6 United Kingdom 2,523,216
9 Italy 2,071,955
13 Spain 1,358,687
18 Turkey 819,990
25 Norway 512,581
42 Greece 241,796http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2014/02/weodata/index.aspx
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Here are two different sources. Greece is 43rd from the World Bank. Even with some wiggle room maybe upper 30s.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2195.html
http://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP.pdfGovernment Credit Rating
| Country | S&P | | Moody’s | | Fitch | | Score |
| Canada | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Denmark | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Finland | AA+ | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Germany | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 99 |
| Greece | B | Stable | Caa1 | stable | B | 20 |
| Liechtenstein | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 100 |
| Netherlands | AA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AA | 98 |
| Norway | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Poland | A- | Stable | A2 | stable | A- | 69 |
| Spain | BBB | Stable | Baa2 | stable | BBB+ | 60 |
| Sweden | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 99 |
| Switzerland | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 100 |
| United Kingdom | AAA | Stable | AA1 | stable | AA+ | 97 |
| United States | AA+ | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 97 |http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/rating
Government Debt to GDP
Denmark 44.50%
Germany 76.90%
Greece 174.50%
Norway 29.52%
Spain 92.10%
Sweden 40.60%
Euro area 90.90%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdpRetirement Age
Norway has the oldest retirement age at 67
United States 66, has been there forever
Sweden 65
Denmark 65
Germany 65
Greece 65, was almost the lowest at 57 before the raise
Euro area 64.32
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/retirement-age-men -
The retirement age in the UK is currently 67 for me, but it's expected to rise to 71 when I retire in 20ish years.
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