Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95
-
@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/ratzinger-vatican-ii
I don't know about this magazine, merely that the link turned up quickly in a search for "ratzinger theologian vatican 2".Thanks for the link. Commonweal is a reliable source; I remember reading/citing it several times as an undergrad.
The article shows that Ratzinger was what would be considered "liberal" in the 1960's, but definitely changed his views. Those who do forensic psychology could have a field day in examining his motivation.
He will probably be remembered in LGBT circles for his 1986 letter On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html ). On a first read of that document, people saw hope when he said that homosexual orientation might not be a choice "in certain cases," and thus the person would not be culpable for engaging in homosexual activity. Unfortunately, he went on to insist that all such activity was "objectively disordered." It's a bit like saying "you were born a bird, and thus the desire to fly is not wrong, but if you do fly, it's a sin." (This bird metaphor is admittedly an oversimplification of the interplay between the very complex topics of free will and sin.)
While I am not a member of the Catholic church, I probably have more respect for it than most LGBT people. I also respect LGBT people who have a long family and cultural rooting in Catholicism, and thus live a difficult life with one foot in each community. My first partner was among that group, and life was a challenge for him.
-
@eobox91103 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
Reality is a vast mosaic, none of us get to see it all.
True enough for many aspects of life. But in the case of Ratzinger and his pedophile chessboard actions, advanced legal systems (from which he was well protected) try to ascertain whether guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. A judge or jury follows the demonstrable facts, witness testimony, etc. and arrives at a conclusion based on the preponderance of credible evidence.
I think it would help the discussion if there were some links or references,
I agree, brother eobox, so to my point above:
Pope Benedict and the pedophilia scandal: A timeline
https://theweek.com/articles/495712/pope-benedict-pedophilia-scandal-timeline
Former pope Benedict admits making false claim to child sexual abuse inquiry
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/24/former-pope-benedict-statement-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry
Pope Benedict XVI implicated in report on sexual abuse in German diocese
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/pope-benedict-xvi-implicated-in-report-on-sexual-abuse-in-german-diocese
Benedict was criticized for his handling of the church’s sex abuse scandal.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/world/europe/pope-emeritus-benedict-xvi-sex-abuse-scandal.html
Pope Emeritus Benedict attended meeting where pedophile priest's transfer was discussed
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-benedict-pedophile-priest-transfer
Pope’s child porn 'normal' claim sparks outrage among victims
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/popes-child-porn-normal-claim-sparks-outrage-among-victims-28577483.html#ixzz19fdmXHF4
Benedict's brief papacy was marred by the priest sex abuse scandal
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-church-priest-sex-abuse-scandal-rcna63525 *
(*Note: some defense of Ratz in the one above!)
Victims: Pope Benedict Protects Accused Pedophile Bishops
https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4656143
Leaked church report accuses Pope Benedict of clerical abuse cover-up
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/leaked-church-report-accuses-pope-benedict-of-clerical-abuse-cover-up-1.4769611A list of entities and publications supporting Ratzinger can also be drawn up, from highly impartial sources such as catholic.org -- scroll past the donation plea:
Debunking the myth: Actually, Pope Benedict XVI defrocked a record number of priests
https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=53930As far as Ratzinger sweeping out a record # of pedos as Pope -- was that really a hard # to beat? And it doesn't excuse away his inaction -- or worse yet, action! -- during his continuity as Pope, Cardinal and Archbishop.
And one can find scads of supporting material in the links above.
If anyone wants to address Ratzinger and his unwavering opposition to gay marriage and overall equality, feel free to start a corresponding thread. Here's one to get you started:
Former Pope Benedict XVI Just Connected Gay Marriage With The Antichrist
https://www.newsweek.com/former-pope-benedict-xvi-just-connected-gay-marriage-antichrist-1501835Have a blessed day.
-
@flozen I'm not at all defending Ratzinger as Benedict XVI. While he might have been a "theoretical theology liberal" in the 1960's, when he put on a white dress in 2005 he permitted and/or caused a great deal of damage. He certainly had lots of help within the hierarchy in doing this, but as with any bureaucracy, the buck stops at the top.
The whole pedophilia mess is scandalously bungled at every level. (Side note: I have friends who were molested by clerics, and a high school classmate of mine became a priest-pedophile and is now living in Costa Rica or some some place outside of extradition.) One aspect of the social tragedy is that the RC church had/has no monopoly on child molestation--it might be the most public face of it, but some studies (and I don't have a handy reference) say that the most prevalent situations of molestation are schools and families.
In a more perfect world, the RC church could have tried to come clean and say, essentially, "yes, we fucked up, and we're going to clean house. We also want to help the other institutions in society clean their houses." That's obviously not what happened, and the disaster continues. I don't know how it will get fixed. I will say that if I had a child who was being molested by a priest/teacher/scout-leader, etc., I would probably take some rather direct action.
-
@eobox91103 Again, I'm familiar with the "gay case against Benedict" and furnishing another side of the story.
Again, you're not mentioning his insistence that the gay person always be treated with respect as a person trying to live a life. In 1980s (height of AIDS) that was a signal for many Catholics to chill, get a tad more pro-gay or less anti-gay. Benedict among others, did that.
Sidebar - it's worth mentioning that traditional Catholic doctrine is, in their own view, equally hard on straights & gays ie. non-discriminatory.
Don't say "straights could get married" - because, in traditional Catholic doctrine, even properly married straights are not supposed to have sex UNLESS trying to conceive a child.
Yup. That rough. Single straights are called to celibacy, as are married ones who aren't intent on children. Their lusts & fornications, even with each other, are also disordered / sinful.
I'm not endorsing the trad-cath view, merely explaining. Traditional Catholics are mystified, if you accuse them of discriminating or being tougher on gays. "Everyone's a sinner. We're hard on everyone" mentality.
Overall - Benedict was a major, historic person in liberalizing the Church - and you're saying he did some sort of special damage as Pope.
I can't account for that, except as "Oh there goes the typical incomplete, parochial, gay-lib-tribal viewpoint again, example 1 million."
-
@eobox91103 I know you're not defending and sorry if my post or links made you believe otherwise. You're a constant source of reason. Thanks for sharing what must be difficult memories of friends impacted by this travesty and tragedy.
And agreed that the problem extends far beyond one individual or organized religion. I'm trying to hold to the thread, or we could go on until the Second Coming -- soon to be released on DVD with bonus features!
-
@flozen said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
I know you're not defending and sorry if my post or links made you believe otherwise.
No worries--I probably shouldn't have clicked the "reply to you" option on that message. I appreciate your steady hand in these discussions and the quality of your posts. I don't think you could ever offend me, but please don't take that as a challenge.
@blaberg said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95
you're saying he did some sort of special damage as Pope. I can't account for that, except as "Oh there goes the typical incomplete, parochial, gay-lib-tribal viewpoint again, example 1 million.
Oh dear. This sounds like the kind of excrement that one finds in the "Politics and Debate" section. I said above that have respect for the RC church, probably more than most LGBT people. But the fact remains that the church continues to do great damage to LGBT people, and Bennie15 did nothing to stop that.
-
@eobox91103 "did nothing to stop" - On your own terms, ignoring anything I said: You just equated Benedict to all popes, conceding that he did no unique or exceptional damage.
I also can't think of any unique or exceptional (read that twice) way the Church damages gay people.
Sexual abuse? Yes that's bad, bad, gotta stop - and you concede schools do as much or more of it. Let's add that LGBT themselves do quite a lot. Bad yes, unique no.
Disagreeing that gay sex is good? That can't be the problem - because then I'd have to tell you boo hoo, grow up.
Especially nowadays, the Church's opinion on anything only affects people if they want it to.
And again, B16 (not 15) Ratzinger actually nudged things forward. The typical gay lib just isn't prepared to see or admit it; "Everyone hates me especially the Church" is too much ingrained in the gay-lib identity / tribalism / substitute religion. More here: https://community.gaytor.rent/topic/60694/the-libs-kooky-world-of-hate
-
@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
I also can't think of any unique or exceptional way that the Church damages gay people.
Really? REALLY? REALLY?
Perhaps you need to think harder. If you want to continue this topic, move it to the Religion forum group...but I won't take part in that.
-
@eobox91103 Yes really.
@flozen Just a quick recap of the action here.
- Benedict dies
- You stamp on his grave
- I go, uh not bright
- Nudged a bit to explain, I point out he's a historic "Vatican 2" liberalizer, set TONS of progress in motion
- you melt down, throwing accusations at me - not just him - and in another thread entirely!
What I'm trying to say is: Color me impressed.
Bye now & God bless.
-
@raphjd I danced in my kitchen when I heard that Benny16 died. For the love of God.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login