@I:

The drug combination fenfluramine/phentermine, usually called fen-phen, was an anti-obesity treatment that utilized two anorectics.

Fenfluramine was marketed by American Home Products (later known as Wyeth) as Pondimin, but was shown to cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension and heart valve problems, which eventually led to its withdrawal and legal damages of over $13 billion!

>:D

Look at YOU posting more than emoticons!  ::)    :clap2:

Come on..

The majority of my posts include text and emoticons!

@Frederick:

@cteavin:

@Frederick:

Youtube Video

To a point I agree with you: That's life. If the life choices you've made lead to a place where you're grossly obese and you're heart can't take the strain, or you have type two diabetes, etc. When someone is born with a birth defect that in previous times would have meant they die, or that life would only be physical suffering then I understand your sentiment, that's life.

But in today's America and Europe it's still possible to get the common cold and die.

There's that famous footage from Michael Moore's documentary, Sicko, where a man had to choose between one of two fingers after an accident because of the cost.

This is a philosophical topic otherwise it becomes a long branching road that leads to Sarah Palin's death panels.

There is a mystery about fat / obesity.   Some people eat like pigs.. and are quite thin, while other people eat like pigs and are 600 pounds of unidentifiable flesh.   I don't eat much.. and don't eat junk food or candy.. and eat healthy stuff.  I don't have any external flab.  My blood work is perfect.  My heart is perfect.  I'm surprisingly strong considering I don't work out at all (a tall, very butch neighbor found that out the hard way last month).  However, I have what is called "visceral" abdominal / internal fat that I can't get rid of.  It's a genetic thing from my Norwegian ancestry.   In Norway, there were many famines.  People without stores of body fat did not survive the famines.  Those built like Hagar The Horrible did survive.  I think it is related to having a slow metabolism.  My family members typically live into their 90's unless they were severe alcoholics and smoked all day long.

Decades ago, there was a cocktail medication known as "PhenFen" which effectively caused people to lose weight.. but like always.. some people took WAY more of the medication than they were supposed to and died of heart attacks, so that combination of medications is no longer available for weight loss.

The drug combination fenfluramine/phentermine, usually called fen-phen, was an anti-obesity treatment that utilized two anorectics.

Fenfluramine was marketed by American Home Products (later known as Wyeth) as Pondimin, but was shown to cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension and heart valve problems, which eventually led to its withdrawal and legal damages of over $13 billion!

>:D

That is true, but it was actually a good drug combination.  The problem was that people were abusing it… taking far more than the recommended dosage.  One can die from drinking too much water or breathing pure oxygen.

The drug combination fenfluramine/phentermine, usually called fen-phen, was an anti-obesity treatment that utilized two anorectics.

Fenfluramine was marketed by American Home Products (later known as Wyeth) as Pondimin, but was shown to cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension and heart valve problems, which eventually led to its withdrawal and legal damages of over $13 billion!

>:D

Look at YOU posting more than emoticons!  ::)    :clap2:

@cteavin:

@Frederick:

Youtube Video

To a point I agree with you: That's life. If the life choices you've made lead to a place where you're grossly obese and you're heart can't take the strain, or you have type two diabetes, etc. When someone is born with a birth defect that in previous times would have meant they die, or that life would only be physical suffering then I understand your sentiment, that's life.

But in today's America and Europe it's still possible to get the common cold and die.

There's that famous footage from Michael Moore's documentary, Sicko, where a man had to choose between one of two fingers after an accident because of the cost.

This is a philosophical topic otherwise it becomes a long branching road that leads to Sarah Palin's death panels.

There is a mystery about fat / obesity.   Some people eat like pigs.. and are quite thin, while other people eat like pigs and are 600 pounds of unidentifiable flesh.   I don't eat much.. and don't eat junk food or candy.. and eat healthy stuff.  I don't have any external flab.  My blood work is perfect.  My heart is perfect.  I'm surprisingly strong considering I don't work out at all (a tall, very butch neighbor found that out the hard way last month).  However, I have what is called "visceral" abdominal / internal fat that I can't get rid of.  It's a genetic thing from my Norwegian ancestry.   In Norway, there were many famines.  People without stores of body fat did not survive the famines.  Those built like Hagar The Horrible did survive.  I think it is related to having a slow metabolism.  My family members typically live into their 90's unless they were severe alcoholics and smoked all day long.

Decades ago, there was a cocktail medication known as "PhenFen" which effectively caused people to lose weight.. but like always.. some people took WAY more of the medication than they were supposed to and died of heart attacks, so that combination of medications is no longer available for weight loss.

The drug combination fenfluramine/phentermine, usually called fen-phen, was an anti-obesity treatment that utilized two anorectics.

Fenfluramine was marketed by American Home Products (later known as Wyeth) as Pondimin, but was shown to cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension and heart valve problems, which eventually led to its withdrawal and legal damages of over $13 billion!

>:D

@Frederick:

Youtube Video

To a point I agree with you: That's life. If the life choices you've made lead to a place where you're grossly obese and you're heart can't take the strain, or you have type two diabetes, etc. When someone is born with a birth defect that in previous times would have meant they die, or that life would only be physical suffering then I understand your sentiment, that's life.

But in today's America and Europe it's still possible to get the common cold and die.

There's that famous footage from Michael Moore's documentary, Sicko, where a man had to choose between one of two fingers after an accident because of the cost.

This is a philosophical topic otherwise it becomes a long branching road that leads to Sarah Palin's death panels.

There is a mystery about fat / obesity.  Some people eat like pigs.. and are quite thin, while other people eat like pigs and are 600 pounds of unidentifiable flesh.  I don't eat much.. and don't eat junk food or candy.. and eat healthy stuff.  I don't have any external flab.  My blood work is perfect.  My heart is perfect.  I'm surprisingly strong considering I don't work out at all (a tall, very butch neighbor found that out the hard way last month).  However, I have what is called "visceral" abdominal / internal fat that I can't get rid of.  It's a genetic thing from my Norwegian ancestry.  In Norway, there were many famines.  People without stores of body fat did not survive the famines.  Those built like Hagar The Horrible did survive.  I think it is related to having a slow metabolism.  My family members typically live into their 90's unless they were severe alcoholics and smoked all day long.

Decades ago, there was a cocktail medication known as "PhenFen" which effectively caused people to lose weight.. but like always.. some people took WAY more of the medication than they were supposed to and died of heart attacks, so that combination of medications is no longer available for weight loss.

Youtube Video

To a point I agree with you: That's life. If the life choices you've made lead to a place where you're grossly obese and you're heart can't take the strain, or you have type two diabetes, etc. When someone is born with a birth defect that in previous times would have meant they die, or that life would only be physical suffering then I understand your sentiment, that's life.

But in today's America and Europe it's still possible to get the common cold and die.

There's that famous footage from Michael Moore's documentary, Sicko, where a man had to choose between one of two fingers after an accident because of the cost.

This is a philosophical topic otherwise it becomes a long branching road that leads to Sarah Palin's death panels.

@aadam101:

@Frederick:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

The industry does it to force people to buy health insurance.   It's either that or go bankrupt (or die).

Let them go bankrupt.  In capitalism.. failures go bankrupt.. and should.  The moonbats like to prop up failures by throwing money at doomed disasters.  Everytime the republicans try to change healthcare at all, the moonbats start whining that people will die.  People do die.  All people will eventually die except for me.  It's just a matter of when.  The moonbats don't even wait to evaluate the changes or even read the proposed legislation.

Why should a person die from a disease that is curable?  How much money is your life worth?  Your dads life?  Is the amount different for him?

You never know what your next day will bring up..

That's life!

::)

Youtube Video

@Frederick:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

The industry does it to force people to buy health insurance.   It's either that or go bankrupt (or die).

Let them go bankrupt.  In capitalism.. failures go bankrupt.. and should.  The moonbats like to prop up failures by throwing money at doomed disasters.  Everytime the republicans try to change healthcare at all, the moonbats start whining that people will die.  People do die.  All people will eventually die except for me.  It's just a matter of when.  The moonbats don't even wait to evaluate the changes or even read the proposed legislation.

Why should a person die from a disease that is curable?  How much money is your life worth?  Your dads life?  Is the amount different for him?

You never know what your next day will bring up..

That's life!

::)

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

The industry does it to force people to buy health insurance.  It's either that or go bankrupt (or die).

Let them go bankrupt.  In capitalism.. failures go bankrupt.. and should.  The moonbats like to prop up failures by throwing money at doomed disasters.  Everytime the republicans try to change healthcare at all, the moonbats start whining that people will die.  People do die.  All people will eventually die except for me.  It's just a matter of when.  The moonbats don't even wait to evaluate the changes or even read the proposed legislation.

Why should a person die from a disease that is curable?  How much money is your life worth?  Your dads life?  Is the amount different for him?

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

The industry does it to force people to buy health insurance.   It's either that or go bankrupt (or die).

Let them go bankrupt.  In capitalism.. failures go bankrupt.. and should.  The moonbats like to prop up failures by throwing money at doomed disasters.  Everytime the republicans try to change healthcare at all, the moonbats start whining that people will die.  People do die.  All people will eventually die except for me.  It's just a matter of when.  The moonbats don't even wait to evaluate the changes or even read the proposed legislation.

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

The industry does it to force people to buy health insurance.  It's either that or go bankrupt (or die).

@cteavin:

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

udents anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

What?  :blink:

Then why do hospitals make a big show of putting those super high costs on our bills, well, your bills. One step in making the healthcare industry seem less evil would be to show them charging less.

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

Almost nobody pays the cash price.  Insurers reimburse at MUCH lower rates.  I wouldn't have paid the money.  They would have treated the students anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

Insurers pay MUCH less than the bill you receive in the mail.  A $5000 charge to you would probably be paid at around $400 by an insurance company.

@cteavin:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

Almost nobody pays the cash price.  Insurers reimburse at MUCH lower rates.  I wouldn't have paid the money.  They would have treated the students anyway.

Wait, are you saying the insurance companys don't actually pay that large amount?

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

Almost nobody pays the cash price.  Insurers reimburse at MUCH lower rates.  I wouldn't have paid the money.  They would have treated the students anyway.

@aadam101:

My fix for healthcare is to prohibit employers from offering insurance.  The employers are an unnecessary middle man who only drive up costs.  Let everyone buy their insurance individually.  This will force insurers to actually compete for customers and drive costs down.

This would hurt me personally as I work for a large hospital system and pay almost nothing for healthcare.

Now that you mention it, that's how Japanese healthcare works. It's paid automatically from my employer to the government (like Social Security in the states).

Do you think that will ever happen, the perk of health care given up for a government system?

It's already starting in MA.  Under RomneyCare the rule was that if you had insurance AVAILABLE to you then you had to take it and you were not eligible to buy from the exchange.  That changed under ObamaCare and a lot of low wage workers  just went on Medicaid instead of paying for the insurance via the employer.  Medicaid is MUCH better insurance in most cases so it was a huge benefit to both the employee and employer.  As a result, the Medicaid rolls have increased astronomically.

The Governor has now imposed a fee on businesses for every employee they have that is on Medicaid.  In most cases, the fee is still less than what it would cost to cover the employee via private insurance.

I believe this is a first step at separating employers from health insurance.  I think most business owners would gladly just pay a fee to cover their employees instead of having to buy private health insurance for them.

@aadam101:

My fix for healthcare is to prohibit employers from offering insurance.  The employers are an unnecessary middle man who only drive up costs.  Let everyone buy their insurance individually.  This will force insurers to actually compete for customers and drive costs down.

This would hurt me personally as I work for a large hospital system and pay almost nothing for healthcare.

For instance, my dad's 2 day hospital stay with just a 1 hour procedure was billed to medicare for $78,000.  Even though my dad paid almost no part of that $78,000,  he still bitched about the $30 co-pays to visit specialists, and the $15 / month cost for one of the medications.  Imagine if he got stuck with the tab for $78,000!!!

Governments and corporations won't stop meddling in the insurance game.. however.. I have an idea that is along those lines…

It gets to be a sick joke.  At many Optician places, they have a selection of frames to choose from which are about $60.   They have a separate selection of frames which are virtually identical to the $60 frames, only they are for people with insurance coverage and they cost $350 and up!   I call that fraud and gouging, but since the consumer doesn't feel the hit directly, nobody does anything about it.

Trivia: Did you know John Lennon's iconic glasses were standard issue from the British healthcare plan?  :cool2:

@Adam, when a hospital charges 78,000 dollars (or 5000 in my school's case), where does that money go? Doctors aren't that rich. Seems like someone's getting a larger piece of the pay than they deserve.

@Fred, governments NEED to get lobbyists out of Washington. That's the first step in the right direction to unwed the two.

My fix for healthcare is to prohibit employers from offering insurance.  The employers are an unnecessary middle man who only drive up costs.  Let everyone buy their insurance individually.  This will force insurers to actually compete for customers and drive costs down.

This would hurt me personally as I work for a large hospital system and pay almost nothing for healthcare.

Now that you mention it, that's how Japanese healthcare works. It's paid automatically from my employer to the government (like Social Security in the states).

Do you think that will ever happen, the perk of health care given up for a government system?

My fix for healthcare is to prohibit employers from offering insurance.  The employers are an unnecessary middle man who only drive up costs.  Let everyone buy their insurance individually.  This will force insurers to actually compete for customers and drive costs down.

This would hurt me personally as I work for a large hospital system and pay almost nothing for healthcare.

That actually makes sense, but I don't think it is possible to make that happen. 
One thing that comes to mind is that government jobs include insurance as part of a perk in lieu of a better salary.  They are able to offer insurance to their employees at a group rate, which would cost the employees a fortune to buy on their own.  That same situation occurs when an employee of a large corporation, or even to an extent with a large company.  One company I worked for was spread across 2 states and 3 divisions.  The total company was probably about 100 employees.  They gave us some insurance that was virtually worthless.  The benefits were almost insignificant, and the deductibles were extremely high.  As I recall, I only used it once.  I had a root canal done for roughly $400 about 20 years ago.  The insurance plan covered about $5!

Anyway, when insurance is being doled out in "group plans" then those benefiting from it are the those that have the medical issues, those that bitch the most about medical issues that are of their own invention, greedy and fraudulent providers, etc.  Basically, the group coverage evolves into disconnecting the people from caring about the abuses… as long as they get their personal piece of the pie.  For instance, my dad's 2 day hospital stay with just a 1 hour procedure was billed to medicare for $78,000.  Even though my dad paid almost no part of that $78,000,  he still bitched about the $30 co-pays to visit specialists, and the $15 / month cost for one of the medications.  Imagine if he got stuck with the tab for $78,000!!!

Governments and corporations won't stop meddling in the insurance game.. however.. I have an idea that is along those lines...
When we go to pick up medications for my dad, we pick them up even though he no longer takes most of them.  The pharmacy keeps doling out the pills even though the doctor discontinued them.  We pick them up anyway since it costs us nothing.  So do a bazillion other people.  What they should do is make it illegal to give things away 100% free.  At the bare minimum, the recipient should have to pay at least 5% of everything they get in healthcare.  That would put an end to quite a bit of the abuses.  Even at 5%, patients would bitch to their providers about having been billed for procedures that were unnecessary or not even done, or over priced.

If someone said to you:  "would you like to have your surgery done by Doctor A for $100,000 or Doctor B for $5000??"  you would probably pick Doctor B if you had to pay some or all of that money.    If your insurance was covering all or almost all the tab.. then you would probably pick Doctor A.

It gets to be a sick joke.  At many Optician places, they have a selection of frames to choose from which are about $60.  They have a separate selection of frames which are virtually identical to the $60 frames, only they are for people with insurance coverage and they cost $350 and up!  I call that fraud and gouging, but since the consumer doesn't feel the hit directly, nobody does anything about it.

This would hurt me personally as I work for a large hospital system and pay almost nothing for healthcare.

@aadam101:

@cteavin:

When she went back to the states she had another issue and went to the doctor under Obamacare. She said the first thing that the doctor's office did was make sure her insurance was all in order and that all the forms were signed before they would consider looking at her.

This is pretty standard and it has nothing to do with ObamaCare.  They likely would have still seen her even if she didn't have insurance or if the insurance wasn't active.  Providers spend a great deal of time and effort (and money) trying to get their money from insurance companies.

So then, what's your fix for healthcare? (And say it in a Boston accent    )

Moonbats don't have any solutions to anything other than to throw money at it.

@cteavin:

When she went back to the states she had another issue and went to the doctor under Obamacare. She said the first thing that the doctor's office did was make sure her insurance was all in order and that all the forms were signed before they would consider looking at her.

This is pretty standard and it has nothing to do with ObamaCare.  They likely would have still seen her even if she didn't have insurance or if the insurance wasn't active.  Providers spend a great deal of time and effort (and money) trying to get their money from insurance companies.

So then, what's your fix for healthcare? (And say it in a Boston accent    )

@cteavin:

When she went back to the states she had another issue and went to the doctor under Obamacare. She said the first thing that the doctor's office did was make sure her insurance was all in order and that all the forms were signed before they would consider looking at her.

This is pretty standard and it has nothing to do with ObamaCare.  They likely would have still seen her even if she didn't have insurance or if the insurance wasn't active.  Providers spend a great deal of time and effort (and money) trying to get their money from insurance companies.

Try getting any attention in an emergency room without first filling out insurance forms or having cash or credit on hand.  Providers are extremely greedy.. they have full time staff which account for 30% of healthcare costs that do nothing but make up (fake) bills and shake everyone down for money.  I used to work on many doctor's office computers.  One doctor made headlines when he got caught billing for procedures that were never done, and in other cases having his nursing assistant do procedures (illegally) instead of the doctor.  The nursing assistant eventually set the doctor up to escape being prosecuted himself.  He planted cameras around the office which showed that the doctor would go from patient to patient without changing gloves. 
If the insurance company rejected a claim.. the provider would just submit the same claim again.. and again.. and again. until it was paid.  There is no rule against doing that.